How long do FWKs last?

[kadmium]

In order to be able to resist filling with hot liquid we need to use a triple layer barrier. so we have two layers of polyethylene with a layer of nylon in between. The polyethylene gives the plastic some protection from abrasion and puncture resistance and also improves the chemical resistance. The nylon is the barrier that is primarily to reduce gas transmission (oxygen in particular). Polyethylene is quite poor when it comes to oxygen transmission but nylon is excellent. So the multi layer film takes advantages of the properties of each layer.

There seems to be a lot of negative consumer sentiment at the moment especially with the amount of publicity that Trump is getting in America. With that said many of the Australian made bladders are made from Chinese film so even if we are to purchase the bags locally we would be in the same position. Its not so much an issue as to which country the bags are made but making sure they are made to the right food grade specifications.

I am not that into cask ales but I would be keen to get some feedback from you guys if any of you wanted to give cask ales a go in a bladder. I know commercially it's been done quite a lot already but I have not heard of home brewers doing this before.

LDPE is not meant to be subjected to temps over 80c, and definitely not over 90.

What sort of testing or assurances / lab reports do you have that prove your tripple layer bags are safe for filling with boiling hot liquid before carrying them around?

Sure they may he food grade, but after my experience with your "food grade silicone hose" that stank so badly of curing agent I returned it, I'm suspect on the quality of the goods when the business model is "buy it as cheap as possible"

I'm also concerned that someone si.ply had an idea at KL that you could just fill these up with hot liquid cause you'd done it a few times at your factory and it looked fine.

Your fermzillas exploded on some occasions, and now your selling a product that you are telling people is ok to fill with 20L of boiling hot liquid.

Not sure why you would insinuate Trump has anything to do with sentiment against Chinese products, there are plenty of good things that come out of there but the reality is if you buy cheap you get cheap. And you guys buy as cheap as possible.

So the concern is valid. Do you have some scientific data, or testing (Australian, not something the manufacturer paid for) to show your LDPE bags somehow defy the laws of physics and chemical engineering to withstand temps over 80C, other than just "making it 3 ply"

 

[Coalminer]

OOPS wrong thread, sorry

 

[S.E]

You know I’m an engine and sparkler fan sean, but when you’re using your cube, do you just cool your cube down after priming and use the tap? Just crack the lid? My concern is that a full cube is a lot for one person, do you just seal the lid when you’re done for the night? I’m sure you have explained many times to me already haha

Cask ale in a firkin generally lasts about 3-4 days in a pub once exposed to oxygen. I find in a cube it lasts longer, about twice as long. I put this down at least partly to the beer in a cube having a smaller surface area compared to a horizontal firkin. I do usually just crack open the cap then shut it after each pour rather than having it vented with a soft spile.

 

[YAPN]

So the concern is valid. Do you have some scientific data, or testing (Australian, not something the manufacturer paid for) to show your LDPE bags somehow defy the laws of physics and chemical engineering to withstand temps over 80C, other than just "making it 3 ply"

I'm pretty keen to use these things, they seem perfect for my process. I have asked the supplier if I can fill them with 100C liquid and they told me I was good to go. That's enough for me.

I don't understand your concerns.

 

[YAPN]

I do usually just crack open the cap then shut it after each pour rather than having it vented with a soft spile.

Sorry if this question is a little simple but I gather that you condition your real ale in a cube? I have tried this once, the beer was good but I used too much conditioning sugar. That poor cask was seriously distorted. What amount of conditioning sugar do you use? And what tap do you have in place?

 

[mje1980]

Sorry if this question is a little simple but I gather that you condition your real ale in a cube? I have tried this once, the beer was good but I used too much conditioning sugar. That poor cask was seriously distorted. What amount of conditioning sugar do you use? And what tap do you have in place?

He just uses the tap on the cube. 4g/ltr is good for English ales

 

[wide eyed and legless]

You need very little sugar for a cask ale, if you can't drink it quick enough connect it to a CO2 supply (collected CO2 from ferment) or do as Sean does crack open the top.

 

[kadmium]

I'm pretty keen to use these things, they seem perfect for my process. I have asked the supplier if I can fill them with 100C liquid and they told me I was good to go. That's enough for me.

I don't understand your concerns.

Because the supplier is not the manufacturer, and the supplier (who's interest is to make money like any business) has a vested interest to tell you it's fine. I would like independent verification that it's safe, considering their fermentation vessels are pressure tested and shown to be safe. Then filling a plastic bag made from material that shouldn't be exposed to temps exceeding 80c without safety data to show it's ok, is just risking your own health. They should be able to provide data / evidence that is independently gathered to show the safety of filling thin plastic bags with boiling hot liquids, before selling them on mass to consumers.

If you don't want evidence before using them, that's for you. But if I want it before I start using them, that's for me. So you don't have the right to tell me what I am, or am not allowed to ask for.

 

[S.E]

Sorry if this question is a little simple but I gather that you condition your real ale in a cube? I have tried this once, the beer was good but I used too much conditioning sugar. That poor cask was seriously distorted. What amount of conditioning sugar do you use? And what tap do you have in place?

I use about 30g to 50g of sugar. They do swell considerably over a few days but you can control it if it goes too far by releasing pressure from the cap or turn the cube with the tap uppermost and releasing co2 from that. They take about 20 psi before they balloon too much.

You can use a standard plastic fermenter or water drum tap like this.

I discovered years ago that these taps hold pressure and don’t drip if you pop them apart in boiling water and apply a little food grade lube. People also do that these days to stop fermenter taps dripping after they have been pulled apart for cleaning.

 

[S.E]

if you can't drink it quick enough connect it to a CO2 supply (collected CO2 from ferment) or do as Sean does crack open the top.

I also use the collapsible bag of co2 taken from the fermenter WEAL. If you recall it was me that first thought of the idea and posted it on here.

 

[butisitart]

Hi all,

I mostly brew all grain, but a bit under a year ago I bought a FWK on a whim, then put it in the garage and kept forgetting about it.

Will it still be safe to use? Or should I just chuck it out?

Cheers,
Chris

i had to read about 10 posts to get this. i thought you were dyslexic. i got a f***wit on a whim, put him/her in the garage and kept forgetting about him/her. is s/he still safe to use?? or should i just chuck him/her out.
now i get it
my missus is married to a fkw but she hasn't chucked it out yet

 

[YAPN]

Because the supplier is not the manufacturer, and the supplier (who's interest is to make money like any business) has a vested interest to tell you it's fine. I would like independent verification that it's safe, considering their fermentation vessels are pressure tested and shown to be safe. Then filling a plastic bag made from material that shouldn't be exposed to temps exceeding 80c without safety data to show it's ok, is just risking your own health. They should be able to provide data / evidence that is independently gathered to show the safety of filling thin plastic bags with boiling hot liquids, before selling them on mass to consumers.

If you don't want evidence before using them, that's for you. But if I want it before I start using them, that's for me. So you don't have the right to tell me what I am, or am not allowed to ask for.

I read back through my post to see if I had said anything about your 'rights' and could not find any mention of them.

Thank you though, for further explaining your concerns. I was under the impression that you did not intend purchasing any of these bladders and were raising concerns on behalf of those who did. As for the safe use these things I am quite happy getting the OK from the supplier, if you require further information before purchase that is your prerogative.

 

[YAPN]

I use about 30g to 50g of sugar. They do swell considerably over a few days but you can control it if it goes too far by releasing pressure from the cap or turn the cube with the tap uppermost and releasing co2 from that. They take about 20 psi before they balloon too much.

You can use a standard plastic fermenter or water drum tap like this.

I discovered years ago that these taps hold pressure and don’t drip if you pop them apart in boiling water and apply a little food grade lube. People also do that these days to stop fermenter taps dripping after they have been pulled apart for cleaning.

Thanks for that. I used 180g in a 10lt cube, but it looks like I got most of the process right. I just need another fridge now to keep everything at the proper temp.

 

[kadmium]

I read back through my post to see if I had said anything about your 'rights' and could not find any mention of them.

Thank you though, for further explaining your concerns. I was under the impression that you did not intend purchasing any of these bladders and were raising concerns on behalf of those who did. As for the safe use these things I am quite happy getting the OK from the supplier, if you require further information before purchase that is your prerogative.

I would have a stock of 10 for emergencies when I need to cut a brew day short and decide to no chill, but I would want some evidence they are safe. I have little ones running around, and those things take a long time to cool down. I also am a bit suspect on the safety of them, seeing noone seems to do to the same thing. So, for peace of mind before filling them with hot liquid I just want some sort of proof they are safe. Boiling wort will cause serious burns, and if you have it hoisted up by the neck as they suggest and it gives way, good bye to your lower half.

 

[Nullnvoid]

I would have a stock of 10 for emergencies when I need to cut a brew day short and decide to no chill, but I would want some evidence they are safe. I have little ones running around, and those things take a long time to cool down. I also am a bit suspect on the safety of them, seeing noone seems to do to the same thing. So, for peace of mind before filling them with hot liquid I just want some sort of proof they are safe. Boiling wort will cause serious burns, and if you have it hoisted up by the neck as they suggest and it gives way, good bye to your lower half.

The All Inn Brewing Co FWK kits come in a bladder I believe.

As for the kegland ones, I have some to try! Dubious on holding the neck to fill.

Also, my partner made a good point yesterday, all the syrups for softdrinks used to come in a bladder back in the day.

 

[DU99]

the bladders are bit of a pain emptying into fermenter,lost a litre,but sorted with assistance.and wine still comes in cacks

 

[GrumpyPaul]

No worries at all. Well seeing as we have some interest and we got some private message about this product we have ordered these and they are going to take a few weeks to get made up for us. The bladder suppliers do not normally make this screw cap so we had to order a couple thousand just so they would make them especially for us with this closure type. They will looks like this:

https://www.kegland.com.au/20l-hot-fill-wine-wort-cask-bladder-hot-cube-alternative-irradiated.html
As you can see they only cost $1.60 each if you purchase a box of 10. The freight will be a lot cheaper than sending empty 20L cubes around the country.

I am a bit embarrassed to say this but I think the days of me washing out cubes is probably over. As much as I like the idea of reduce/reuse/recycle to minimise the impact on the environment I think a small amount of plastic film used to make 20L of beer might just be the compromise I have to make.

If you specifically wanted to test these out and get back to us with some feedback then PM me and we can organise some free ones for you when they come into stock.

Hey @KegLand-com-au

Happy for you to be involved in the discussion - but perhaps it might be a good idea to start a thread in the sponsors area if you want to promote/sell them.

GP

 

[wide eyed and legless]

Hey @KegLand-com-au

Happy for you to be involved in the discussion - but perhaps it might be a good idea to start a thread in the sponsors area if you want to promote/sell them.

GP

I was wondering when the sponsors rules was going to apply, better late than never.

 

[GrumpyPaul]

I was wondering when the sponsors rules was going to apply, better late than never.

I hadn't seen this one until today. If you see something you think the mods should be aware of just click on report so it gets brought to out attention

 

[Ferment8]

Hey @KegLand-com-au

Happy for you to be involved in the discussion - but perhaps it might be a good idea to start a thread in the sponsors area if you want to promote/sell them.

GP

Considering the discussions evolved from the original post i would think this whole thread is perfectly fine. Let's not get a bit gun shy.