How long do FWKs last?

[beergee]

No worries at all. Well seeing as we have some interest and we got some private message about this product we have ordered these and they are going to take a few weeks to get made up for us. The bladder suppliers do not normally make this screw cap so we had to order a couple thousand just so they would make them especially for us with this closure type. They will looks like this:

https://www.kegland.com.au/20l-hot-fill-wine-wort-cask-bladder-hot-cube-alternative-irradiated.html
As you can see they only cost $1.60 each if you purchase a box of 10. The freight will be a lot cheaper than sending empty 20L cubes around the country.

I am a bit embarrassed to say this but I think the days of me washing out cubes is probably over. As much as I like the idea of reduce/reuse/recycle to minimise the impact on the environment I think a small amount of plastic film used to make 20L of beer might just be the compromise I have to make.

If you specifically wanted to test these out and get back to us with some feedback then PM me and we can organise some free ones for you when they come into stock.

These look fantastic.
Real space savers when not in use too.

 

[fdsaasdf]

Personally I won't be buying a non-reusable product but good for you to keep innovating @KegLand-com-au

Back on topic - I keep my FWKs in the dark under a towel in my reasonably well insulated under-house recess. I don't get to brew more than every few months so build up a cache of various beers - those that are highly hopped are fermented early but I've kept other cubes of stout, amber, RIS etc for just over 2 years at most.

My 18 month old RIS cube that was bottle conditioned for 6 weeks scored 2nd place in the state champs.

 

[Ernois]

I know grain and grape have done these trials and I was told by them that they kept fresh wort kit for 2 years and it had no noticeable impact to flavour. I would have thought that some aroma would have been lost but they did not say this. I guess if you really want hop aroma it's still a good idea to dry hop anyway.

Also, would you guys be interested in us supplying bladders to use for fresh wort. The cubes are good but they are not always the right size and they are expensive to ship as they are so bulky. We can get the bladders made up suitable for hot filling and a 20L bladder would be about $2-3. This includes the cost of us getting the bladders irradiated. So you would get a bladder that is absolutely sterile when you fill. I think we could probably sell these as a pack of 10 bladders for under $2 each with screw cap. This would also be cheap enough that you could give a bladder of fresh wort to a friend and not worry about getting the cube back from them. Would be keen to get some feedback from you guys to see if this is a good idea or not.

Looks like a great idea. I would be keen to try these. What do they look like when full and are how easy are they to handle/move around?

 

[kadmium]

What are the bladders made from? I'm always suspect of cheap as anything Chinese plastics and my health.

 

[Grmblz]

^ +1

 

[S.E]

The bladder suppliers do not normally make this screw cap so we had to order a couple thousand just so they would make them especially for us with this closure type.

These sound like they would be perfect for real ale? No need to clean and sanitise first like a cube or polypin. All you would need is a cap with a tap similar to collapsible camping water containers. Would that be possible? What sort of cap do the bladder suppliers usual supply?

 

[S.E]

What are the bladders made from? I'm always suspect of cheap as anything Chinese plastics and my health.

This is what it says in the link above.

Triple Layer
The triple layer construction consists of:
Layer 1 - 50micron polyethylene (PE)
Layer 2 - 45micron polyethylene (PE)
Layer 3 - 15micron nylon
Layer 1 gives the bladder the best possible chemical resistance making this bag suitable for a wide range of beverages. Layer 2 and 3 are laminated together for strength, puncture resistance and also to give the bag superior oxygen barrier properties keeping the liquid fresher for longer.

 

[kadmium]

Well Low Density Polyethylene (LDPE) should not be subjected to heat over 80c for any period of time. So I would be very wary of people pouring molten sugar liquids into bags at 100c and then moving them around. A small leak will be catastrophic and cause serious burns.

Not saying it's not a good product, just wary of 'new' and 'custom made' for hot filling. Sure, these bags have been around for cool liquids but LDPE loses a lot of its strength at over 20c temps.

LDPE also releases Methane and Ethylene (a class 3 Carcinogen - Unknown as to cancer causing in humans) for a substantial period of time after manufacture.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-density_polyethylene
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethylene

 

[S.E]

Well Low Density Polyethylene (LDPE) should not be subjected to heat over 80c for any period of time. So I would be very wary of people pouring molten sugar liquids into bags at 100c and then moving them around. A small leak will be catastrophic and cause serious burns.

Not saying it's not a good product, just wary of 'new' and 'custom made' for hot filling. Sure, these bags have been around for cool liquids but LDPE loses a lot of its strength at over 20c temps.

LDPE also releases Methane and Ethylene (a class 3 Carcinogen - Unknown as to cancer causing in humans) for a substantial period of time after manufacture.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-density_polyethylene
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethylene

Oh well! Still may be perfect for real ale containers though?

 

[kadmium]

Yeah for low temp it looks really good. Just suspicious on filling it with boiling sugar liquid and someone scorching themselves.

But for real ale looks ******* skitz. Get yourself a hand pull and a sparkler and have some real cask ale!

 

[Grmblz]

Now sitting here with a glass of the finest chateau-de-cardboard it occurs to me that the bladders inside wine casks are not pe, I believe they are mylar?
mmm Google tells me it's metalized Biaxially-Oriented PolyEthylene Terephthalate (boPET) whatever the fk that is, but it brings up the question, if the wine industry with it's millions of research dollars says this is the stuff to store alcoholic drinks (prone to oxidation) in for an extended period of time, perhaps ldpe isn't the best choice.

 

[S.E]

Yeah for low temp it looks really good. Just suspicious on filling it with boiling sugar liquid and someone scorching themselves.

But for real ale looks ******* skitz. Get yourself a hand pull and a sparkler and have some real cask ale!

I already have hand pulls (beer engines) you don’t need a hand pull for real ale and certainly not a sparkler so all good there.

If they are good for no chill I may try them and even go back to doing that also. At the moment I find it easier to chill wort if it is over about 20 Litres.

 

[kadmium]

I already have hand pulls (beer engines) you don’t need a hand pull for real ale and certainly not a sparkler so all good there.

If they are good for no chill I may try them and even go back to doing that also. At the moment I find it easier to chill wort if it is over about 20 Litres.

I see you're not a sparkler fan

 

[S.E]

I see you're not a sparkler fan

I am a big fan of beer engines and also sparklers. But sometimes think I may as well be smashing my head in to a brick wall than explaining yet again that cask/real ale don’t need to be served through either.

 

[kadmium]

I am a big fan of beer engines and also sparklers. But sometimes think I may as well be smashing my head in to a brick wall than explaining yet again that cask/real ale don’t need to be served through either.

Why not? (Joke)

 

[KegLand-com-au]

Looks like a great idea. I would be keen to try these. What do they look like when full and are how easy are they to handle/move around?

I have over-filled one of these to 23L and this was more difficult to handle but if you fill to the specified 20L you can just pick it up by hand pretty easily. I would say that when they are hot you really want some way to hold onto the neck. This is the only issue that I found. I have since started to use some laser cut pieces of wood to hold the neck of the bag and this seems to make the neck easier to hold. If you guys find like using the bags we will probably make a wire neck holder or something to make it a bit easier but I am sure a lot of you guys who are pretty handy will find a way to hold the neck of the bag just with stuff lying around the house. I did use VB cord to hold onto the neck and tied to the side of the milk crate. So something as simple as this can also solve the problem.

I need to do some more testing but the bladders also seem to cool down faster. I need to do some side by side testing to get the actual data but it seems to be the case.

If you are the type of person who likes to chill the hot wort a bit quicker you can stick the bladder in a plastic tub with cold water. I do find that when I do this with rigid 20L cubes I can only fit one in the 80 plastic tub that I have. If I use bladders I can put several in the same 80L tub. I generally do not care if it cools down to pitching temp but I at least like to get the wort below 80C as quickly as I can if I have put hops into the bladder.

 

[KegLand-com-au]

Oh well! Still may be perfect for real ale containers though?

As far as plastics go LDPE is widely seen to be safe and one of most used plastics in food packaging such as containers, glad wrap, bags, etc. Small amounts of ethylene and methane may be released at the time of manufacture but are released to atmosphere and come out of the plastics over time. Both ethylene and methane are quite volatile and even if it was to get into the fermenter (which is unlikely) it would blow off well and truly before the fermentation finishes. You are probably more likely to breathe in far more methane from a fart or a pile of lawn clippings as you walk past a garden bed or simply taking a couple seconds to light a gas stove. I would imagine simply going to the petrol station and breathing in the fumes would pose a far greater health risk.

 

[KegLand-com-au]

What are the bladders made from? I'm always suspect of cheap as anything Chinese plastics and my health.

In order to be able to resist filling with hot liquid we need to use a triple layer barrier. so we have two layers of polyethylene with a layer of nylon in between. The polyethylene gives the plastic some protection from abrasion and puncture resistance and also improves the chemical resistance. The nylon is the barrier that is primarily to reduce gas transmission (oxygen in particular). Polyethylene is quite poor when it comes to oxygen transmission but nylon is excellent. So the multi layer film takes advantages of the properties of each layer.

There seems to be a lot of negative consumer sentiment at the moment especially with the amount of publicity that Trump is getting in America. With that said many of the Australian made bladders are made from Chinese film so even if we are to purchase the bags locally we would be in the same position. Its not so much an issue as to which country the bags are made but making sure they are made to the right food grade specifications.

I am not that into cask ales but I would be keen to get some feedback from you guys if any of you wanted to give cask ales a go in a bladder. I know commercially it's been done quite a lot already but I have not heard of home brewers doing this before.

 

[S.E]

As far as plastics go LDPE is widely seen to be safe and one of most used plastics in food packaging such as containers, glad wrap, bags, etc. Small amounts of ethylene and methane may be released at the time of manufacture but are released to atmosphere and come out of the plastics over time. Both ethylene and methane are quite volatile and even if it was to get into the fermenter (which is unlikely) it would blow off well and truly before the fermentation finishes. You are probably more likely to breathe in far more methane from a fart or a pile of lawn clippings as you walk past a garden bed or simply taking a couple seconds to light a gas stove. I would imagine simply going to the petrol station and breathing in the fumes would pose a far greater health risk.

I wasn’t being serious or concerned about the dangers of the plastic, I was asking about a tap on the cap option?

I’ve posted on the KL Q&A thread about how they could be used for no chill and also used to ferment in without the need to transfer the wort to a separate fermenter especially if they could be made a little larger to give enough headspace for a 20L-25L brew length. What are your thoughts on that? KegLand Questions and Answers

 

[mje1980]

I am a big fan of beer engines and also sparklers. But sometimes think I may as well be smashing my head in to a brick wall than explaining yet again that cask/real ale don’t need to be served through either.

You know I’m an engine and sparkler fan sean, but when you’re using your cube, do you just cool your cube down after priming and use the tap? Just crack the lid? My concern is that a full cube is a lot for one person, do you just seal the lid when you’re done for the night? I’m sure you have explained many times to me already haha