How Do You Return Vorlauf To Mash When Fly Sparging?

[Barley Belly]

I'm tooling up for my first fly sparge. Although my initial setup may be primitive compared to most I've seen, my main issue is that I'm going to all the trouble of building a manifold to gently add the sparge water without disturbing the grain bed but:-

How do I return the vorlauf to the mash without disturbing the grain bed?

I don't want to add it to the sparge water as I feel it will do one or both of two things 1) Block the sparge manifold 2) Add sugary goodness to the mash water because of the high gravity first runnings, when it should be clean water to extract the most I can from the grains.

I'll give you a brief overview of my system which may make it easier to answer my questions. My HLT is a Coopers Fermenter, insulated, with a Grimwood 2400W immersion element, it will be gravity fed into my 33L Coleman esky Mash Tun with copper manifold and then gravity fed into my 40L Alu brew kettle.

Do I just do the same as I did when batch sparging and drain the vorlauf, turn the tap off again, then gently pour it on top of the piece of camping mat I use to insulate the mash, then add the sparge water at the desired rate and match that rate with the tun tap?

I hoped to keep the tap open for the whole process to stop any unnecessary compacting of the grain bed.

My limited understanding of Fly Sparging is to try and keep an inch or so of sparge water above the mash whilst sparging. So do I start to add my sparge water first until I have a body of water above the mash, then collect the first runnings and slowly add then through a sieve or some other flow diverting device?

I guess what I'm after is what method works for you, so I can adapt one to suit my system.

 

[Bribie G]

My understanding is that Vorlauf is done with full strength runnings until the wort runs clear and then sparging can commence. Apparently this often only requires a couple of litres of first runnings to be 'recirculated' and I would guess that a small watering can may do the job? Once the grain filter bed has become established then as the spargings sink to the lower horizons of the grain bed that should only reinforce the filtering effect?

 

[Sammus]

Bribie is on the money. I recirc my mash water with a jug. I don't know how some people get such clear runoff, I can often recirculate 20L+ and still have chunks of grain coming though, so I pump it in a circle for a while. Once it's running clear start the sparge. I open both taps just a bee's dick and try and balance the flow. It takes a bit of getting used to at first, but worth it IMO; I got a 20% efficiency jump instantly when I starting flying. Other people say they get 95% or whatever without sparging, but whatever, it certainly helped in my system, and that's the reason I do it

 

[Wolfy]

As you said simply return the vorlauf to the mash the same as batch-sparging, couldn't be easier: http://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Vorlauf
Use two 1L Jugs (or similar) to return the vorlauf and you won't need to stop the flow and risk compacting the grain bed.
With a fly sparge you want to drain slowly - about 1L per min is a good target - so it's easy to use one jug to catch the vorlauf while you return it to the tun with the other, then just swap them over without stopping the flow.

Depending on the grain bill, shape of the mash tun and stiffness of the mash, you may already have 1 inch of wort above the grain bed, if not, I'd suggest you add sufficient liquor as part of the mash-out step (which will also help prevent further conversion during the slow draining of the mash tun). Else just add hot liquor as required before you start the vorlauf and sparge process.

If you keep the 1 inch of wort over the grain bed you don't need a fancy sparge-arm.
A hose with something to distribute the water on the bottom (an up-turned pot/plate, piece of metal or similar floating on/above the grain bed) works fine. However I think you'll want to remove the camping mat before you start the vorlauf and sparge.
The sparge liquor should be to be distributed evenly and adding it ontop of the mat may cause channeling - especially down the sides of the tun. Once the sparge has started you don't need to worry about heat-loss since you're continuously adding hot liquor (just adjust the liquor temp as required if you notice additional heat loss).

Two more thing to keep in mind before your first fly sparge (obvious I know, but I learned both the hard way):
* Make sure before you start sparging is that the liquor is the at right temperature and the element is set to keep it at that temperature.
* It's critical to ensue you have sufficient volume of sparge liquor.
Total volume (mash plus sparge) is equal to your pre-boil volume plus what the grain will retain (~1.67L per kg), then add 5-10L extra just to be sure.
The correct temperature will help keep the grain bed fluid and if the wort level drops below the grain bed the process will be less efficient, you'll have to stop the fly sparge process, risking compaction and channeling, refill the HTL, then set the drain and liquor flow all over again ... a real PITA.

 

[Screwtop]

While I'm not a BIAB brewer, but the real deal - Fly Sparger, I will try to provide you with some advice from actual experience :lol:

As Wolfy has given a good detailed explanation, his post can save me some time.

As you said simply return the vorlauf to the mash the same as batch-sparging, couldn't be easier: http://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Vorlauf
Use two 1L Jugs (or similar) to return the vorlauf and you won't need to stop the flow and risk compacting the grain bed.
With a fly sparge you want to drain slowly - about 1L per min is a good target - so it's easy to use one jug to catch the vorlauf while you return it to the tun with the other, then just swap them over without stopping the flow.

This is similar to how I do it also. A measuring jug and a bucket, drain to the bucket (slow drain speeds clearing) until clear then into the jug after a glance at the second hand on my watch then return the wort from the bucket to the tun. I simply pour onto the flat blade of my mash paddle near the wort surface. As long as there is a good depth of wort above the grist there is little risk of disturbing the grainbed. Back to the jug where the flow is set to .5L per min. After 20 min or so draining the flow can be increased a little, as the grainbed compacts slowly the outflow reduces, just keep the level fairly constant in the mash tun, it's easy at such a slow rate. plenty of time, go get a coffee and relax (remember, no beer until the first hop addition is in the kettle)

Depending on the grain bill, shape of the mash tun and stiffness of the mash, you may already have 1 inch of wort above the grain bed, if not, I'd suggest you add sufficient liquor as part of the mash-out step (which will also help prevent further conversion during the slow draining of the mash tun). Else just add hot liquor as required before you start the vorlauf and sparge process.

Yes raising the temp as in a mash out step assists clearing. Wort becomes less viscous and clearer once at the higher temp.

If you keep the 1 inch of wort over the grain bed you don't need a fancy sparge-arm.
A hose with something to distribute the water on the bottom (an up-turned pot/plate, piece of metal or similar floating on/above the grain bed) works fine. However I think you'll want to remove the camping mat before you start the vorlauf and sparge.
The sparge liquor should be to be distributed evenly and adding it ontop of the mat may cause channeling - especially down the sides of the tun. Once the sparge has started you don't need to worry about heat-loss since you're continuously adding hot liquor (just adjust the liquor temp as required if you notice additional heat loss).

For years I have used a simple length of copper pipe with a kind of "frog flap" on the end as a sparge arm. After moving to double batches two years ago the additional volume in the mash tun necessitated replacement with a shorter arm. This time I used a "T" on the end. My latest addition is taken in part from om Blichmann Auto Sparger http://www.blichmannengineering.com/auto_s...uto_sparge.html did not like having a float valve in the way but thought that the hose and float was a good idea. Used a length of silicone hose with a fishing net fload drilled out and slid over one end, fitted an elbow and a SS hosetail on the inside of the tun, the hose is pushed onto this. Easy removal for cleaning, simplest sparge arm yet, still to be tested.

As long as there is a good cover of liquid above the grist there is little risk of disturbing the grainbed, plus sparge water entering mixes with the layer above the grist. I particularly don't like sprinkling methods. Have tried a rotating sparge arm and other methods but found that these methods of breaking up the sparge flow into droplets reduced the temp of sparge water by such a degree that sparge water needed to be in the vicinity of 95C to allow for this.

Continuous sparging is simple and really easy, so don't stress, a few runs and you will have it sorted...............simply set the rate of flow out to .5L per min then maintain the level in the mash tun by adjusting the inflow of sparge water. At such a slow rate this is easy, just peek in every 15 or 20 min and adjust sparge rate accordingly, having too much sparge water covering the wort is the least of your worries and more desirable than letting it drop below the level of the grainbed. Some (not many) fly spargers begin with a full HLT and fly sparge until their runnings reach a pre-determined gravity (usually around 1.008). In this case sparge water can be sprinkled and a level just above the grainbed maintained until this gravity is reached. Most continuous spargers will have a predetermined amount of sparge water in the HLT which will all be drained/pumped to the mash tun. In this case, so long as water entering the mash tun is maintained above the grainbed the inflow will cease before the grainbed is exposed then all of the remaining liquid will be drained from the grainbed. After trying fly/continuous sparging you will realise that much of the hoo haa surrounding spargewater entering and disturbing the surface of the grainbed matters little in the homebrew situation due to the configuration of our mash tuns being predominately tall and narrow keg like vessels.


Two more thing to keep in mind before your first fly sparge (obvious I know, but I learned both the hard way):
* Make sure before you start sparging is that the liquor is the at right temperature and the element is set to keep it at that temperature.
* It's critical to ensue you have sufficient volume of sparge liquor.
Total volume (mash plus sparge) is equal to your pre-boil volume plus what the grain will retain (~1.67L per kg), then add 5-10L extra just to be sure.
The correct temperature will help keep the grain bed fluid and if the wort level drops below the grain bed the process will be less efficient, you'll have to stop the fly sparge process, risking compaction and channeling, refill the HTL, then set the drain and liquor flow all over again ... a real PITA.

Another tip, when calculating your Mash Out infusion volume. Set the temp in Beersmith at 94 but use boiling water. Temp of the boiling water will drop rapidly when removed from the heat and poured into the tun.

Cheers,

Screwy

 

[Sammus]

1.67L held per kg of grain? isn't that heaps? Most things say 1L per kg, and I swear if I let it sit and drain properly it's closer to 600ml per kg... :\

 

[Siborg]

some really good info here. I did my first fly sparge the other day and found it really efficient. Got a few handy tips to try next time (2 jugs for constant recirc)

 

[Screwtop]

1.67L held per kg of grain? isn't that heaps? Most things say 1L per kg, and I swear if I let it sit and drain properly it's closer to 600ml per kg... :\

Hmmm.......yeah wondered about that. Thought he might have been talking about the total volume per Kg in the mash tun once water is added, not the volume of liquid retained per Kg of grain.

I work on 1.1L per Kg of liquid retained in the mash.

Screwy

 

[raven19]

When I previously used my esky as a MT - I simply placed a foil baking tray with a heap of holes punched into it on top of the mash, then gently poured the first runnings back in onto the tray. Worked ok for me.

 

[jbirbeck]

When I previously used my esky as a MT - I simply placed a foil baking tray with a heap of holes punched into it on top of the mash, then gently poured the first runnings back in onto the tray. Worked ok for me.

legendary idea...might give that a go on my set up now.

 

[Wolfy]

1.67L held per kg of grain? isn't that heaps? Most things say 1L per kg, and I swear if I let it sit and drain properly it's closer to 600ml per kg... :\

While I did post at 2am in the morning, I hope I got the numbers right.

Pg. 64 "Designing Great Beers" gives the following formula: Grain weight in lbs x 0.2 = Gallons of water retained by grains.
And lists a table which contains numbers such as: (Pounds of Grain Mashed / Gallons of Water Lost): 5 / 1, 10 / 2.125, 15 / 3.250, 20 / 4.330

It's quite possible that when I put the numbers in my spreadsheet and converted to L and kg I made a mistake.
But 10lb ~ 4.5kg, so at 1.67L/kg = 7.51L ~2 gallons ... I think? If so the formula 1.67L/kg is closer to the results in Ray Daniel's table than 1L/kg.

That's where I got the numbers from, but please correct my maths/conversions if they are wrong!

 

[Sammus]

While I did post at 2am in the morning, I hope I got the numbers right.

Pg. 64 "Designing Great Beers" gives the following formula: Grain weight in lbs x 0.2 = Gallons of water retained by grains.
And lists a table which contains numbers such as: (Pounds of Grain Mashed / Gallons of Water Lost): 5 / 1, 10 / 2.125, 15 / 3.250, 20 / 4.330

It's quite possible that when I put the numbers in my spreadsheet and converted to L and kg I made a mistake.
But 10lb ~ 4.5kg, so at 1.67L/kg = 7.51L ~2 gallons ... I think? If so the formula 1.67L/kg is closer to the results in Ray Daniel's table than 1L/kg.

That's where I got the numbers from, but please correct my maths/conversions if they are wrong!

you're maths and conversions are OK... I've just never heard that figure before. I think the 1L/kg is the "standard" many take from His Holiness J.P.

my 600ml thing was a mistake, I was thinking of volume per kg of grain, which is about 652ml according to Beersmith. I'm not sure what absorption value they use and I couldn't be bothered figuring it out right now , but it must be OK because I get my fermenter volumes spot on every time...

 

[TidalPete]

When I previously used my esky as a MT - I simply placed a foil baking tray with a heap of holes punched into it on top of the mash, then gently poured the first runnings back in onto the tray. Worked ok for me.

Did the same when I was fly sparging with an esky for my MT using gravity (Had previously experimented with a PVC manifold).
Just a bit of Alfoil placed on top of the wort to dissipate the pressure of the returning wort & had no worries at all.
:icon_offtopic:
Gone to HERMES long ago on a one level brewstand & using a single pump & am batch sparging with no difference in efficiency using a different technique (Around 90% or so) & leave it to other brewers to work out what's best for them.
Good luck & happy brewing. :beer:

TP

PS ----------- For those of you who are determined to fly sparge just look at Post 5 for the best advice you'll get IMHO.

 

[Bribie G]

While I'm not a BIAB brewer, but the real deal - Fly Sparger, I will try to provide you with some advice from actual experience :lol:

..............................

Cheers,

Screwy

While I am a BIAB brewer the techniques are of great interest, for example a number of BIABBers on this forum are looking at ways of doing a sort of Vorlauf with BIAB and in fact towards the end of June, when I have a bit of cash arriving, I'll be setting up a one vessel system for clarifying through the grain bed, using a March Pump and assorted plumbing. It will also allow a degree of sparge towards the end of the drain (as in the current sparge in a bucket 'tweak'). Not to mention a mash out temp raise, so it will borrow elements of RIMS. Vorlauf obviously has its advantages as the Krauts have been using it for decades, hence the name, and it's interesting to note that in their braumeister machine they incorporate very similar principles combined with their BIAB style "malt pipe" that inspired BIAB in the first place.

 

[browndog]

While I am a BIAB brewer the techniques are of great interest, for example a number of BIABBers on this forum are looking at ways of doing a sort of Vorlauf with BIAB and in fact towards the end of June, when I have a bit of cash arriving, I'll be setting up a one vessel system for clarifying through the grain bed, using a March Pump and assorted plumbing. It will also allow a degree of sparge towards the end of the drain (as in the current sparge in a bucket 'tweak'). Not to mention a mash out temp raise, so it will borrow elements of RIMS. Vorlauf obviously has its advantages as the Krauts have been using it for decades, hence the name, and it's interesting to note that in their braumeister machine they incorporate very similar principles combined with their BIAB style "malt pipe" that inspired BIAB in the first place.

March pump....... I thought all you BIAB brewers were all about simplification. If you are getting a march pump Bribie, then I'll have to talk to you about single tier 3V

cheers

Browndog

 

[Bribie G]

March pump....... I thought all you BIAB brewers were all about simplification. If you are getting a march pump Bribie, then I'll have to talk to you about single tier 3V

cheers

Browndog

No, simple single vessel system still, the March pump is to avoid turning it into a multi vessel system. :icon_cheers: At the end of the day I could just use a jug or small watering can for the system I'm looking at but I'd be like a one handed brickie in Baghdad. :unsure: