Hot break

[razz]

Evening all. I was a bit intrigued today whilst brewing a German pils. I had mostly hot break in the kettle as I had used a basket for the first wort hops. During the transfer I noticed that the break wasn’t moving towards the pick up tube as I got down to the last few liters. I had slowed the run off to avoid the hot break stampede but it never eventuated. You will notice in the pic that there was only a small amount of wort left but this stuff was like a lump of green snot! When I hosed out the remains onto the lawn it generally stuck together. Never struck this before. For the record I used brewbrite for the last ten minutes.

 

[Malted Mick]

No explanation or knowledge to contribute to this snot phenomenon, but I like the results. I use Whirfloc and I wonder if I should try Brewbrite.

 

[MHB]

I use Brewbrite and thats exactly why!
You notice the tight trub cone more when there isnt a shedload of hops in the bottom of the kettle, which is pretty typical of German pilsner/lager beers.
Mark

 

[Malted Mick]

My LHBS has P.V.P.P Polyclar, is that the same as Brewbrite?

Could you use both Whirlfloc and Polyclar together as they appear to be different products and target different compounds?

 

[MHB]

Brewbrite is a blend of Kappa Carrageenan (the most active component in Irish Moss/Whirlfloc) and PVPP.

The isolated Kappa Carrageenan is better than the powdered seaweed in Whirlflock.
The PVPP tackles high MW Polyphenols (Tannins) that are one half of the haze forming equation.
So yes Mick you could use two ingredients and get a similar result but from experience I'm going to say Brewbrite works better.
I'm not sure which of the many versions of PVPP your local stocks, It’s a form of Nylon and like most plastics its engineered to do specific jobs, the one in Brewbrite is customised to work well in hot wort. Others are made for wine making and to be more active cold... Depends on how much work whoever chose the PVPP went to to get the best one for the job.
Atleast with Brewbrit you know is a made for brewing product.
Mark

 

[duncbrewer]

If that brewbrite can make the hot and cold break congeal like that I'm going to get some.
Did you use the recommended dose?

 

[duncbrewer]

Damm doesn't seem available in New Zealand, will have to source from overseas and wait for ever, grr.

 

[razz]

If that brewbrite can make the hot and cold break congeal like that I'm going to get some.
Did you use the recommended dose?

Yep, I think the label says 4 grams per 23 lt batch and I use 7-8 grams for a 42-44 lt batch. I get it from Grain and Grain here in Melbourne. 50 gram or 150 gram jars.
I think Mark hit the nail on the head, it does this when there is not a lot of hops in the whirlpool.

 

[MHB]

Helps heaps if your end of boil pH is on target, you have enough Calcium in the wort... Hitting all those silly "good brewing practice" targets, hum?
People often forget just how much impact pH will have on proteine solubility and floculation, being aroung 5.0-5.2pH at the end of the boil matters.
Mark

It looks a bit like this for most plant proteines

 

[razz]

I always check mash pH but never take a post boil reading.

 

[Tubbsy9876]

I had a weird thing happen yesterday. I had a 75 degree mashout of a pure Belgian Pilsner grain bill. I left it in the kettle to grab lunch, and came back to grey foamy jelly floating on top.

Figured it was congealed protein and skimmed it off before the boil. Anyone else seen this?

 

[MHB]

I always check mash pH but never take a post boil reading.

Well if your mash is in range and you have plenty of Ca in your wort (and not too much Carbonate) it should fall to the right pH during the boil.
Still not a bad thing to check from time to time, it tells you that all the water chemistry you are doing is right.
Texts like Kunze give the amount of various ascids (notably Lactic) to add to both the mash and kettle to achieve target pH. Lots of referances for adding more Ca in the kettle to, so this is hardly a new concept.
Mark

 

[razz]

I’ll do it for the next session. In this brew I hit a mash pH of 5.3 without adding any acid. Generally I need a couple of mls of acid to get the target pH but this time I had 500 grams of acidulated malt in the recipe (with 9kgs base malt)

 

[MHB]

Same same, Sour malt is just pilsner sprayed with a lacto broth, dried and standardised so that 1% of grist lowers the pH by 0.1pH.
Your 0.5kg in 9kg of base malt well not sure if thats 9.0 or 9.5kg's total.
At 9kg total 0.5/9*100=5.555% or a reduction in your pH of 0.555 so from 5.8555pH to somewere useful. Dont know where you are but your water must not be too bad (or well treated) to be coming in at 5.8pH without the acid adition.
Mark

 

[razz]

It was 9.5 kg total. The water is pretty good here in Mornington 3931. The important minerals are mostly in the single digit range. I boil all the brewing water the night before and add in some sodium met and leave it sit.
Edit. And had added some brewing salts to the mash when I dough in, so making sure there is enough calcium etc before a pH reading.

 

[MHB]

What ever you are doing is working
Mark

 

[Cloud Surfer]

It was 9.5 kg total. The water is pretty good here in Mornington 3931. The important minerals are mostly in the single digit range. I boil all the brewing water the night before and add in some sodium met and leave it sit.
Edit. And had added some brewing salts to the mash when I dough in, so making sure there is enough calcium etc before a pH reading.

Can I ask how much Sodium Met you are adding. I’m adding 1/4 teaspoon to about 35-40 litres of water.

 

[razz]

I use about the same CS. I put 1/4 tsp in the mash tun and 1/4 tsp in the hlt for sparging. Total about 70 lts.

 

[Cloud Surfer]

Ok, great. Good to see we’re on the same page. Whatever page that is.

 

[duncbrewer]

I use 0.5g per 25 litres. Teaspoons are a bit variable.

 

[MHB]

If you do the calculations it comes in at around 0.006g/L to remove Chlorine at the rates typically found in municipal water, actually that’s a slight excess to what is needed (mostly).
So to treat say 50l you would need 50*0.006 = 0.3g
A level teaspoon (5mL) is usually regarded as being 7g
Sounds like some people are overdosing slightly, not that it will matter much unless you get really carried away. There are some issues the way some Lager yeasts metabolise Sulphur and there can be flavour/aroma effects if there is too much free sulphur available.
If you are adding it the night before or if the water is warm (and given a few minutes before mashing in) it should be very effective and any excess should gas off pretty quickly.
Mark

 

[Cloud Surfer]

I prepare the water the night before so any excess does gas off. Plus when I get up all I have to do is flick the switch to start heating the water and I’m under way.

 

[DarrenTheDrunk]

I have it from good authority (not me) that if the smell is clear...you can smell it without having to try) it is working. Same logic to see if previously mixed solutions are still useful. I tend to over do it just a bit cos it is so cheap when I buy it in 20kg bag

 

[DarrenTheDrunk]

If you do the calculations it comes in at around 0.006g/L to remove Chlorine at the rates typically found in municipal water, actually that’s a slight excess to what is needed (mostly).
So to treat say 50l you would need 50*0.006 = 0.3g
A level teaspoon (5mL) is usually regarded as being 7g
Sounds like some people are overdosing slightly, not that it will matter much unless you get really carried away. There are some issues the way some Lager yeasts metabolise Sulphur and there can be flavour/aroma effects if there is too much free sulphur available.
If you are adding it the night before or if the water is warm (and given a few minutes before mashing in) it should be very effective and any excess should gas off pretty quickly.
Mark

what Mark said...

 

[razz]

So just checking back into this thread as I have a few items to feedback on.
The German Pils was kegged two days ago and it had a post ferment pH of 4.29.
I've just knocked out an American stout with the following pH levels, mash pH 5.30, post boil pH 5.02.
I calculated the sodium met additions as per Mark's recommended 0.006g per lt. It treated 90 lts of water so I only needed 0.54 grams. Looking at that small amount I'd say my 1/2 tsp in the last batch was too much. Live and learn.
Happy days!

 

[duncbrewer]

Not really, because The sod met turns into SO2 gas I think and this will get lost in the hot mash and boil. Bet there is an unmeasurable amount that gets to your fermenter. One campden tablet in half a cup of water in the bottom of keg sealed up for a while open it and it is possible to smell the chemical.
Pour that out into a bowl overnight and then put it back in the keg for a while and the odour is negligible, so mashing and boil will really get rid of it.

 

[MHB]

Assuming that it doesn’t react with anything before it evaporates, could say the same about the Chlorine, it will evaporate so there would be no need to remove it right? Wrong! It pays to know what is going on before assuming.

Mark