Hop Creep / Diacetyl Issue?

[JRode]

Pls help: a murky Hazy pale. Had a few issues with this one, made 3 different batches with the same recipe, and only one turned out the way I was hoping.

Batch #1: A solids 8/10, no major issues

• 3 day dry hop
• 3 weeks in the fermenter at 22 C

Batch #2: Extremely bitter/metallic/lingering aftertaste + butterscotch taste after 4 days in the keg

• 5 day dry hop
• 1 week in the fermenter at 20 C
• This one was also overcarbonated
  

Batch #3: Same bitter after taste as #2 but no butterscotch

• 5 day dry hop
• 2 weeks in the fermenter at 30 C

Additional factors:

• Yeast used: Voss Kveik
• 5L batches
• Hop additions:
  • 60 min: 3.8g Columbus
  • WP: 12.50g Simcoe/Mosaic
  • Dry hop: 25g Simcoe/Mosaic/Citra
• No water chemistry additions
• Heat mat used for Batch #3

Here is the batch that actually came out okay, the colour is still a bit off...

Any ideas what went wrong with #2 and #3? My first guess is the dry hop added excessive bitterness, and the butterscotch was due to oxidation. Keen to know what you guys think.

 

[GalBrew]

Batch number 2 could be suffering from incomplete clean up of VDKs (diacetyl + precursors) due to a shorter fermentation time compared to the other two batches. Or batch number 2 could be suffering from hop creep, I have found that when I dry hop with a large amount of Mosaic I get significant (but transient) levels of diacetyl after the beer has been kegged. It is so annoying that I no longer dry hop with Mosaic. I would check the gravity on batch number 2 to and compare it to the other batches to confirm if it is still fermenting.

 

[elmoMakesBeer]

I'm very new to the game and lack any expertise so don't think my opinion would add much value. But did you really ferment batch #3 at 30deg? You're braver than me (or a sloppy typer).

 

[MHB]

First thought is to look at your boil. Or perhaps more important how well you are separating your break material from the wort before fermentation.
Looks like the sort of beer people get when they ferment on the break material.
Old adage but clear wort makes clear beer.
Mark

 

[Blighty]

I'm very new to the game and lack any expertise so don't think my opinion would add much value. But did you really ferment batch #3 at 30deg? You're braver than me (or a sloppy typer).

Think of Voss as a fancy yeast that likes to get hot. There are a few in this "kveik" range that have been gaining popularity recently.

 

[donald_trub]

Old adage but clear wort makes clear beer.

You're too old school, Mark... that's the type of clarity people shoot for these days

Any particular reason to use Kveik? You seem to be fermenting for pretty normal lengths of time. I've never had a Kveik beer that I've truly loved. They all seem so off-flavoured to me.

I think you should rule out hop creep. 5g/L for your dry hop is pretty high, but I wouldn't have thought it would be high enough to produce a noticeable amount of enzymatic activity. Are you dry hopping while the yeast is still active? That will also help to eliminate the diacetyl if you think that's where it's coming from. Most people tend to do it with a few gravity points left towards FG, but then again... this is the new world where people do it at the start of fermentation!

 

[argon]

First thought is to look at your boil. Or perhaps more important how well you are separating your break material from the wort before fermentation.
Looks like the sort of beer people get when they ferment on the break material.
Old adage but clear wort makes clear beer.
Mark

agree with MHB... only time i've ever had a beer look like that is when i broke a burner gas regulator mid boil and had to finish it off with underpowered elec elements.

Probably didn't get a vigorus enough boil and therefore break formation.

 

[yankinoz]

when I dry hop with a large amount of Mosaic I get significant (but transient) levels of diacetyl after the beer has been kegged.

Transient may be the key word. I've used 20-30g dry hop Mosaic in 20L batches and never tasted diacetyl, but I bottle, and at temps that should clean it up.

 

[JRode]

Batch number 2 could be suffering from incomplete clean up of VDKs (diacetyl + precursors) due to a shorter fermentation time compared to the other two batches. Or batch number 2 could be suffering from hop creep, I have found that when I dry hop with a large amount of Mosaic I get significant (but transient) levels of diacetyl after the beer has been kegged. It is so annoying that I no longer dry hop with Mosaic. I would check the gravity on batch number 2 to and compare it to the other batches to confirm if it is still fermenting.

Thanks mate, I'll check the gravity for next time and see whether it's still fermented.

 

[JRode]

K

I'm very new to the game and lack any expertise so don't think my opinion would add much value. But did you really ferment batch #3 at 30deg? You're braver than me (or a sloppy typer).

Kveik, it's magic

 

[JRode]

First thought is to look at your boil. Or perhaps more important how well you are separating your break material from the wort before fermentation.
Looks like the sort of beer people get when they ferment on the break material.
Old adage but clear wort makes clear beer.
Mark

Super interesting, how do you usually separate the trub? I have never actually removed the whirlpool hops from the wort before fermentation - only just realised this is something that I should potentially be doing.

 

[JRode]

You're too old school, Mark... that's the type of clarity people shoot for these days

Any particular reason to use Kveik? You seem to be fermenting for pretty normal lengths of time. I've never had a Kveik beer that I've truly loved. They all seem so off-flavoured to me.

I think you should rule out hop creep. 5g/L for your dry hop is pretty high, but I wouldn't have thought it would be high enough to produce a noticeable amount of enzymatic activity. Are you dry hopping while the yeast is still active? That will also help to eliminate the diacetyl if you think that's where it's coming from. Most people tend to do it with a few gravity points left towards FG, but then again... this is the new world where people do it at the start of fermentation!

2 dry hops, one on the 2nd day and one on the 5th.

I used Kveik for the quick fermentation but struggle to find the time on week days to keg, which means I end up just letting it ferment for 2 weeks.

Thanks for the feedback

 

[MHB]

Trub isn't Hops (hops are a part of trub) its the other bits of the hot break that we need to exclude from the ferment. Hot Break is primarily made up of high molecular weight proteins complexed with Polyphenols (Tannins/Tanninoids) and a fair whack of the Lipids (Fats and Oils) that were in the malt. In fact Hot break can be up to 40% by weight fats.
All of these ingredients are things we want to remove from the wort before fermentation as they all contribute to haze formation and staling. If you ever study brewing by the time you sit an exam you will need to be able to name at least 4 (probably 6) reasons why we boil a wort, 1 of those reasons relates to hops (bitterness/taste/aroma) all the rest are to do with making the beer stable and fit to ferment.

Try and see the difference, give your wort a good boil for 1 hour (or more), use a good kettle fining, turn off the heat, establish a whirlpool, leave the wort until all motion stops, drain the beer and leave the trub behind.
I think your beer will look, smell and taste better.
Mark

 

[JRode]

Trub isn't Hops (hops are a part of trub) its the other bits of the hot break that we need to exclude from the ferment. Hot Break is primarily made up of high molecular weight proteins complexed with Polyphenols (Tannins/Tanninoids) and a fair whack of the Lipids (Fats and Oils) that were in the malt. In fact Hot break can be up to 40% by weight fats.
All of these ingredients are things we want to remove from the wort before fermentation as they all contribute to haze formation and staling. If you ever study brewing by the time you sit an exam you will need to be able to name at least 4 (probably 6) reasons why we boil a wort, 1 of those reasons relates to hops (bitterness/taste/aroma) all the rest are to do with making the beer stable and fit to ferment.

Try and see the difference, give your wort a good boil for 1 hour (or more), use a good kettle fining, turn off the heat, establish a whirlpool, leave the wort until all motion stops, drain the beer and leave the trub behind.
I think your beer will look, smell and taste better.
Mark

Cheers Mark