Herms System

[GMK]

Hi guys, et all.

I am having a discusion with some one ( nameless) on the use of a Herms system.
he is all about making the best beer that he can...(and making better beer)

He now feels taht he needs a Herms system to make a better/best beer. Someone he know won best beer of show and uses a hermes sytem - he had a 1st place but did not win BOS judging.

Do these things really work....
Is he getting too out there and making the beer too complicated - do you guys think it is necessary.
I wonder how many Commercial Breweries use Herms.

Happy to hear comments on either side....

 

[browndog]

I've said this before, If you have a good mash tun that holds the heat and you can accurately predict your mash temp a HERMS or RIMS is a waste of time. The ONLY benefit is with step mashes and with the brewing software we have now, you can get the temps bang on. We are having BIAB and NC beers winning major comps Ken, tell your mate a HERMS won't make him a better brewer.

cheers

Browndog

 

[schooey]

tell your mate a HERMS won't make him a better brewer.

As a proud owner of a HERMS system, I almost totally agree. I also agree with your other point that a HERMS system makes step mashes a fair bit easier, but adds a shite load of consistency. IMHO, consistency is one of the biggest steps in becoming a better brewer, hence my almost

 

[GMK]

Thanks Guys,

With todays highly Modified Malts/grains....Unless you are using Boh Pils or Powels - do you really need the step mashes.

 

[hoohaaman]

Thanks Guys,

With todays highly Modified Malts/grains....Unless you are using Boh Pils or Powels - do you really need the step mashes.

Explains it all really.

 

[schooey]

From my relative inexperience, GMK,.... buggered if I know.... I recently made a Marzen utilising a triple decoction mash schedule that a lot of people told me was a waste of time, but I've never achieved a beer with such a beautiful colour and rich flavours from a single step mash... but maybe it was just a fluke. Put it this way, it's good enough to make me go through the pain of a triple decoction again if I can get the same beer...

I've read a lot here about acid rests and protein rests with today's superior level of modified malts, and I still think it comes down to personal choice. It would be one hell of a study to come up with a definitive answer as far AFAIC anyway...

 

[KHB]

I just like the consistency you would be able to get with a HERMS and its why i built one. Knowing i can hit and hold my temps spot on everytime sounds good to me.

KHB

 

[Back Yard Brewer]

Hi guys, et all.

I am having a discusion with some one ( nameless) on the use of a Herms system.
he is all about making the best beer that he can...(and making better beer)

He now feels taht he needs a Herms system to make a better/best beer. Someone he know won best beer of show and uses a hermes sytem - he had a 1st place but did not win BOS judging.

Do these things really work....
Is he getting too out there and making the beer too complicated - do you guys think it is necessary.
I wonder how many Commercial Breweries use Herms.

Happy to hear comments on either side....

IMHO the art in making better beer is about becoming more consistent. The idea of being able to control a step mash instead of adding hot water stirring and hopefully striking the right temp, then maybe adding some more cold a little hot etc etc etc. Then bang a hand element in stir it around because maybe you missed your temp all seems bloody difficult. Modified malts or not, who ever the debate is with over herms in a nutshell if they don't acheive anything then nothing is lost. Except their own time. This forum is here for one reason, well to me anyway, and that is as a resource. I for one like the idea of being able to have more acurate control of ones mash. Probally one of the reasons I am going to give it a go. Brewing to me is all about going outside of your own boundarys. Having a go so to speak. I am sure you couldnt agree more. To quote a well known brewer ""Making beer is not WORK.......it's personal expression by creating Living ART!"........GMK May04. You are spot on Kenny it shouldnt be a chore, it should be fun knowing that if you can't paint a nice picture you can express your own artistic flair via other means. Thus rests my case.

BYB

 

[LethalCorpse]

Hi guys, et all.

I am having a discusion with some one ( nameless) on the use of a Herms system.
he is all about making the best beer that he can...(and making better beer)

He now feels taht he needs a Herms system to make a better/best beer. Someone he know won best beer of show and uses a hermes sytem - he had a 1st place but did not win BOS judging.

Do these things really work....
Is he getting too out there and making the beer too complicated - do you guys think it is necessary.
I wonder how many Commercial Breweries use Herms.

Happy to hear comments on either side....

Has he thought about RIMS? Easier to build and control.

 

[newguy]

I built a HERMS a few years ago. It allows me near perfect repeatability which has a huge influence on the quality of beer I produce. I designed it to be very automated - set & forget - which allows me to do other things while the system takes care of everything. A pleasant surprise was how my efficiency jumped from 70% when I mashed in an esky to 85% with the HERMS.

A HERMS or RIMS doesn't mean that you'll magically go from producing so-so beers to stellar beers. It's simply another tool. The real secret to great beers can only come from experience in my opinion. When you master your ingredients, what they contribute, and how they work together, then you can be reasonably assured of success in competitions.

Commercial breweries have a completely different 'scale' from us, small scale, homebrewers. Commercial mash tuns are frequently steam-jacketed so they can do step mashes. The only real difference is their lack of recirculation, and I don't think that it's that big of an advantage because if it was, every commercial brewer would be doing it.

All this said, I wouldn't trade my HERMS for an esky. I love the automation and repeatability, but that's just me.

 

[Justin]

In the end I think any noticable improvement in a beer that is brewed by a brewer on a herms system is probably largely to do with the increasing experience level of the brewer, the level of their interest and dedication into brewing the beer and how much they have educated themselves on the topic. Take the herms away from them and they will still brew a fantastic beer. A brewer who has a herms is obviously dedicated to the hobby and is passionate about it. This comes along with an increased attention to detail in all other aspects of brewing, an increasing understanding of what is going on where, why and how and what effects it has and generally a much greater attention to detail. These things are going to see the beer you produce lift in standard immensely, far more than the effect a herms system in my opinion.

Mash temp and control and it's effect on the "quality of the final beer" is WAY over played IMO and contributes far less to the quality of the final beer than a lot of the other variables in brewing. Do you really think your beer will be a complete failure if you mashed at 66.345C versus 67.789C? In reality with todays malts there is so much conversion done in the first 10-15 mins that I honestly think how you control the temp for the next 45 mins has a very minimal effect indeed. Factors far more likely to effect the "betterness of your final beer" are things like sound recipe formulation, stringent fermentation temp control, using clean, quality yeast starters of sufficent pitching rate, pitching at the correct temperature and not stressing the yeast, good levels of sanitation, water chemistry etc.

These are where the really great beers are created and IMO if you were to talk to consistent winning brewers I bet they are looking pretty closely at these points. Yes, we can all get lucky and just nail it every now and then but to consistently brew great beer your incredible control over mash temp is not going to make up for failings in these other areas. When was the last time you saw your beer marked down in competition because of poor mash temp control, most flaws lie in recipe design and execution, fermentation flaws and finally that the beer fits into the category in which it was entered.

My name is Justin. I have a herms. It does not make me a better brewer (unfortunately).

 

[kirem]

I use my HERMS for repeatability, set & forget and to get on with other parts of the brew day. I also set it to run in the early hours of the morning and wake up to a mash circulating at mash out ready for transfer to kettle. I can fit a few brews in back to back and I could probably knock a wort out every 2-3 hours if I wanted, I don't have the fermentation space for more than four fermentations running at the same temperature profile.

I can also experiment with step mashing and see for myself the differences. I do see a difference with a protein rest across a range of malts and I like trying to get an acid reset to work. A while back, I watched a lot of information come out from the late George Fix and his step mashing ideas/theory, its good to experiment with those ideas.

I would say that a HERMS won't instantly make you a better brewer, but as has already been said it certainly gives you a few more tools and the ability to easily tweak recipes and run them again with the same mash environment or the same recipe with a different mash environment.

Of course mashing is only part of the brewing process, fermentation environment, maturation, O2 pickup, finishing and delivery need attention to detail as well.

I am also a techo at heart and have a border line obsessive compulsive disorder with technology especially in my brewery.

It is also a decision on how much money you want to spend on your brew setup.

You can probably achieve all of the above with a non-HERMS or RIMS setup, but HERM or RIMS does make it alot easier and less labour intensive


Heeelllloooo Justin

My name is Kirk and I am a HERMSoholic

 

[Justin]

I wont deny it's fun and I loved designing it and watching it all work out perfectly as planned. It truely does work quite well indeed.

It was also very satisfying and also makes the brew day a lot more fun with flashing lights, whirring pumps, moving liquids. That side of it can not be understated :chug:

 

[KHB]

I use my HERMS for repeatability, set & forget and to get on with other parts of the brew day. I also set it to run in the early hours of the morning and wake up to a mash circulating at mash out ready for transfer to kettle. I can fit a few brews in back to back and I could probably knock a wort out every 2-3 hours if I wanted, I don't have the fermentation space for more than four fermentations running at the same temperature profile.

I can also experiment with step mashing and see for myself the differences. I do see a difference with a protein rest across a range of malts and I like trying to get an acid reset to work. A while back, I watched a lot of information come out from the late George Fix and his step mashing ideas/theory, its good to experiment with those ideas.

I would say that a HERMS won't instantly make you a better brewer, but as has already been said it certainly gives you a few more tools and the ability to easily tweak recipes and run them again with the same mash environment or the same recipe with a different mash environment.

Of course mashing is only part of the brewing process, fermentation environment, maturation, O2 pickup, finishing and delivery need attention to detail as well.

I am also a techo at heart and have a border line obsessive compulsive disorder with technology especially in my brewery.

It is also a decision on how much money you want to spend on your brew setup.

You can probably achieve all of the above with a non-HERMS or RIMS setup, but HERM or RIMS does make it alot easier and less labour intensive


Heeelllloooo Justin

My name is Kirk and I am a HERMSoholic

Wow set up so it mashes in by itself and recurculates for the hour, i thought my HERMS was hi tech. How do you do that??

KHB

 

[kirem]

Wow set up so it mashes in by itself and recurculates for the hour, i thought my HERMS was hi tech. How do you do that??

KHB

With a timer and solenoid on the HLT. A bit of trialling and I can set the HLT solenoid to turn on for a period of time to give me the required volume. I should really get a lot finer data and have a lookup sheet of HLT solenoid time open = strike water volume. The mill has an electric drive and independent timer that starts when the HLT solenoid opens and stops independent of the HLT timer. I run this for a lot longer than needed as I dread waking up to find a portion of the grain still in the hopper.

Power is then switched (via SSR) to the PID controlling the Heat exchanger and pump. The PID temperature controller is a programmable job from auberins so ramps and soaks it way from 20 to mash out automagically.

I used to play with electronics for a living. What I have done above is quite crude and nasty, there are no failsafes and the hot liquor measurement, detection when the grain has finished crushing and flow detection once the pumps starts are missing. It is probably missing a few other failsafes. But I have faith in my system and it hasn't played up on me....yet

I will still implement interlocks and safety cuts etc, but I will transition all that and a few current features into a computer controlled system. At the same time I may start working on automating the filling the kettle after mash out temp is reached and then the sparge.

I will probably look at weight measurement for the HLT rather than a flowmeter for accurate strike water measurement

I purchased some new screw in-line temp probes from auberins that I am currently fitting. I'll take some photos and post them later today to;

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...12289&st=40

 

[chappo1970]

I've only 5 AG's under my belt, and without a doubt a very inexperienced AG brewer, but I have been tossing up the worth of going to the HERMS system. I agree with the comments that a HERMS is not going to make me or anyone for that matter a better brewer. What will make me a better brewer IMO is to learn and understand the malts, yeasts, water, adjuncts, specialty grains, processes etc and how they effect the final outcome eg good beer.
I will eventually go HERMS for the geek factor alone, being honest. Being an eternal fiddler, tweaker and fabricator I know I won't be able to control myself. The lure of flashing lights, buttons to push, gauges to watch is far too strong for my will power.

My 2c FWIW

...I'll take some photos and post them later today to;

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...12289&st=40

Look forward to that kirem

 

[Screwtop]

My 2c worth re highly modified/high enzymic malt. This was where part of the problem lay with a problem I was having with low attenuation "using my equipment and processes" (using quotes to stress the point).

I contacted Jamil Zainascheff and a couple of commercial brewers re the problem. Jamil suggested that underletting and the use of high enzymic malts and a single infusion may be contributing to the problem, since strike water was being added to the grist at much higher temps, in the 5 to 8 minutes after stirring while the temp stabilised some conversion was occuring at higher temps with these malts.

This has all been covered before, but in a nutshell, by changing to water first and waiting for the tun to absorb heat before adding the grist a little gain was made in att%. Next by mashing in at a lower temp around protien rest temp and raising to sacc rest using the HERMS another gain in Att% was observed. Using the HERMS, enzymes never come in contact with wort hotter than the max temp reached in the system, where as with infusion mashing water is added well above the desired temp and the temp of the mash equalises over some time to reach the desired step temp.

HERMS is never going to be responsible for producing competition winning beers, there is much more to it than that. But I find it provides predictability which I never had before, now it's relatively easy to produce a desired FG for a given grain bill, mash regime, yeast strain and fermentation conditions. Something absolutely necessary if a brewer wants to produce a beer true to style.

For me it was my preference for dry beers that drove me to make the change, had tried lower mash temps but could never manage the result I was looking for.

If you continue to win comps using a non HERMS system why change, if you're peering over your shoulder and being overtaken by the jockeys wearing HERMS colours then there just could be something in it


Screwy

 

[razE]

I hear what the guys are saying about the consistency and honestly if i had the money to burn i would purchase a herms system as well but in saying that I hit a 75 - 80 percent efficiency in an esky and have no problems hitting a mash temp within a degree. Mashing in steps though would be a breeze on a herms system. At the end of the day I have to agree with newguy that mastering the ingredients, what flavours they will bring to your beer and how well they will go together is biggest factor in producing a great beer. If your friend has the money to throw at a herms system then i think he should go for it but at the end of the day isn't totally necessary.

When you master your ingredients, what they contribute, and how they work together, then you can be reasonably assured of success in competitions.

 

[Back Yard Brewer]

HERMS is never going to be responsible for producing competition winning beers, there is much more to it than that. But I find it provides predictability which I never had before, now it's relatively easy to produce a desired FG for a given grain bill, mash regime, yeast strain and fermentation conditions. Something absolutely necessary if a brewer wants to produce a beer true to style.


Screwy

He now feels taht he needs a Herms system to make a better/best beer. Someone he know won best beer of show and uses a hermes sytem - he had a 1st place but did not win BOS judging.

Exactly one of the points I was trying to make. You don't need a HERMS to make award winning beer, something I have proved. To me its about control and more of it.

In reference to Screwy's comment on single infusion mashing where you mash in with a high strike temp to allow for the temp drop, its a valid point I have sometimes thought about. Unless you add hot water, stir then add again, wait, run around the house, stopp stir add a bit more, well I think I am making my point :lol: HERMS for me will allow to raise to that temp. It does not have to cost a fortune to knock up a circing system, that is if you have the resources such as I have.

Interesting thread so far.

BYB

 

[churchy]

What the hell is a Herms system and what does it look like!Any pics and could you make one.




Andrew