Herms System Concerns

[Batz]

Remember this post by vlbaby back in Sept. ?

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/Herm...erns-t6991.html


If you read Dicko's post #9 you will see where I am coming from.

Today I made up a new HERMS coil . instead of it being inside my HLT , I now have it mounted seperately in an urn.

Photo's show what I have done in case it may help some brewers setting up a system.

First pic shows the coil fitted into the urn
Second pic shows the outside of the finished urn , yet to be plumbed of course

Batz

 

[Darren]

Batz,
Why didn't you put it in the HLT?

 

[Batz]

Batz,
Why didn't you put it in the HLT?

[post="90432"][/post]​

It was in the HLT Darren , read the attached thread in my first post

pic shows how I had the coil the last 2 years

 

[Darren]

Batz, skimmed the thread! Was it because you were worried about denaturing enzymes in the recirc at 85 or because of the sparge with 85 water? Or something else?
I reckon that an electric urn will be useful to more easily adjust temps compared to gas HLT

 

[warrenlw63]

Batz.

I've heard of brewers (think in America) doing a similar thing (mounting a coil and element) with a spare corny keg. :unsure:

Warren -

 

[Batz]

Batz, skimmed the thread! Was it because you were worried about denaturing enzymes in the recirc at 85 or because of the sparge with 85 water? Or something else?
I reckon that an electric urn will be useful to more easily adjust temps compared to gas HLT

[post="90450"][/post]​

Sparge water Darren , if I have to increase the sparge water to 85c say , then it becomes to hot for the HERMS.

I also needed to top up water after the mash-in as the level did not cover enough of the coil , thus I had to wait till this heated up as well.

I am as yet to try it out but I believe it will work well , an urn maybe a bit of an over kill , but hell I had one here.

Batz

 

[AndrewQLD]

Looks the goods jeff, and that coil is a thing of beauty, I would be interested to hear how you go with this as I am looking at going to herms myself and have been worried about the sparge water temp issues as well. it should in theory make you brew day a little quicker as well. Are you using one of the dixcell controllers on that or just using the urn thermostat?
Look forward to the reports.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Batz]

Thinking of using the Dixcell to control the March pump , eg turn in on and off as the temperture of the mash hits target.

Batz

 

[warrenlw63]

If you read Dicko's post #9 you will see where I am coming from.

[post="90429"][/post]​

The business of denaturing enzymes has yet to be proven to me, and as I think about it, if through the decoction process you take a portion of the mash and bring it to the boil then would this process not denature enzymes as well. I will stand corrected if someone can provide accurate theory on this subject.

[post="79311"][/post]​

Yep, right up to a point but also wrong to another Dicko. When you draw a decoction you take the thick, about 30-40% of the mash (read; non-liquid) and raise it through a series of steps then boil it for a given period of time.

Enzymes are indeed denatured during this process. HOWEVER the lion's share of the enzymes are still alive and kicking in the thinner (liquid) portion left in the main mash. The boiled decotion is returned to the rest of the mash to raise the temperature of the bulk while the remaining enzymes left behind in the liquid are still in abundance to achieve the task at hand, namely the next temperature step of the mash as a whole.

Raise the temperature of your whole mash about 75c and the enzymes will denature at a fairly rapid rate. A good if not foolhardy test would be to do a single infusion mash at say 78c for 60 mins and possibly do an iodine test at the end. Either that or see how much unconverted starch gets washed through into your finished beer or how dextrinous or full-bodied it winds up. :unsure:

Warren -

 

[Wortgames]

Batz, is there a reason you don't just directly fire your mash tun for step schedules?

My system uses an HLT HERMS but I really only ask it to maintain temps, and I light a rocket under the MLT to achieve steps. I don't have to be too accurate with the LPG, as the HLT will do a fairly good job of tuning and maintaining the mash temp as long as I get it in the ball park with the burner. The HLT is only ever a couple of degrees warmer than the mash. I use a temp controller on the HLT and the pump circulates constantly.

 

[vlbaby]

Thinking of using the Dixcell to control the March pump , eg turn in on and off as the temperture of the mash hits target.

Batz

[post="90489"][/post]​

Batz,
I had a bit of play with a similar setup as what you have. I found that i could leave the pump running continously and switch the electric element to the urn in response to the mash temperature. Worked ok but some controller tuning was necessary or else the temperature would overshoot.
just another idea, might be worth a play.

vlbaby.

 

[tangent]

nice setup Batz
goes to show an urn in the right hands is an awesome thing
as opposed to old ladies and tea

 

[Batz]

Batz,
I had a bit of play with a similar setup as what you have. I found that i could leave the pump running continously and switch the electric element to the urn in response to the mash temperature. Worked ok but some controller tuning was necessary or else the temperature would overshoot.
just another idea, might be worth a play.

vlbaby.

[post="90531"][/post]​

[/quote]


That is how I have been doing it wthl the HLT HERMS , one thing I found running the pump continously, was my efficiency is exellent so I will continue doing that I suppose.

Everyones system is different , mine changes every so often too.

I love brewing beer , drinking beer and making changes to my brew set up , sort of a hobby for me.
I am still working on my hop-back

Batz

 

[BrissyBrew]

I am building a HERMS system at present gong to use my HLT as my heat exchanger (also going to use it as a chiller at the end of the boil). I plan to use the HERMS to maintain / tweak temperature control. For stepping I am considering infusing hot water or making a steam injector.

 

[vlbaby]

That is how I have been doing it wthl the HLT HERMS , one thing I found running the pump continously, was my efficiency is exellent so I will continue doing that I suppose.

Everyones system is different , mine changes every so often too.

I love brewing beer , drinking beer and making changes to my brew set up , sort of a hobby for me.
I am still working on my hop-back

Batz

[post="90578"][/post]​

I can relate to that. The engineering side of brewing is very addictive. Problem is it can be a big money hole too.
My opinion of the herms is to run continously so that the entire mash stabilises at the same temperature. If I stop recirc for 10 minutes say, the temperature readout doesnt change at all in this time. But as soon as i recirc again, the temperature appears the suddenly drop.
This tells me that the mash has been dropping in temperature, just not at the probe. The sudden restart of recirc mixes the lower temperature back thru the mash again and lowers the overall temperature. So in theory i now think its better to keep the pump running.
This has just been my observations so far.When i'm not brewing with my gear I'm always playing with it and tweaking it.

thinking about some beer filters soon like ross has.
True beer nerd I suppose

vlbaby.

 

[PeterS]

Batz. I aint going to change my set-up for awhile. If it aint broken don't fix is is the idea. After three batches using the new HLT HERMS system, everything is spot on. What' more, it makes a nice beer. Using insulated kegs helps a lot. I ended up covering the camp mattress insulation with wooden slats all around. Stained, it looks a treat as well and hides a lot of unsightly work of mine. Funny enough, after researching the topic, I had ideas of using my 20L SS ex Woolies pot for a HERMS but decided against it as I have three kegs anyhow. On your way to Ross on the 3rd, Pop in and have a quick look (with your camera of course). I am not too far off the rout.

:beer:
PeterS....

 

[Batz]

On your way to Ross on the 3rd, Pop in and have a quick look (with your camera of course). I am not too far off the rout.

PeterS....

[post="90591"][/post]​

That sounds like a good idea , it'll be the three wise men
AndrewQld
Tidalpete
Batz

Or perhaps that should be the three Stoogers

You saw my brew system in action Peter , yes it worked well , I just can't leave things alone , I am sure you worked that out as well

Batz

 

[Justin]

Very nice work Batz. I'm sure you'll like the separate heat exchanger. I'm likely to do the same thing with an external heat exchanger seperate from the HLT as I have nearly all the pieces necessary.

Reason I want to build a separate xchanger is:
1. Easier to build (in my method anyway, thinner stainless walls, no extra fittings, no more holes in my kegs etc)
2. The smaller volume will be quicker to heat and respond to temp demands.
3. I don't have to worry about sparge temps.

I plan to use a 7L cheap stainless stock pot that I already have and drop in a 3/8" coil (length undecided yet) over the side rather than through the wall, in which I will mount the element (probably 2400W) with a stirrer of some sort. I'm currently searching for a temperature controller which will have it's probe in the outlet of the herms coil so that the outlet will be my desired mash temp rather than an elevated temp. I will have pretty short lines running from tun to xchanger and back to tun, so with constant recirculating the temp should drop very little (In theory) in the lines and the power of the xchanger should handle temp loss from the keg easily.

I'm looking at it from more of a maintaining temp position as oposed to stepping.

I can't help myself either Batz. I love building accessories and gadgets

Cheers, Justin

 

[vlbaby]

Batz. I aint going to change my set-up for awhile. If it aint broken don't fix is is the idea. After three batches using the new HLT HERMS system, everything is spot on. What' more, it makes a nice beer. Using insulated kegs helps a lot. I ended up covering the camp mattress insulation with wooden slats all around. Stained, it looks a treat as well and hides a lot of unsightly work of mine. Funny enough, after researching the topic, I had ideas of using my 20L SS ex Woolies pot for a HERMS but decided against it as I have three kegs anyhow. On your way to Ross on the 3rd, Pop in and have a quick look (with your camera of course). I am not too far off the rout.

:beer:
PeterS....

[post="90591"][/post]​

peters,
your mash tun sounds exactly the same as mine. Although as good as the wood looks, it makes it damn heavy to lift

vlbaby.

 

[user 384]

When you draw a decoction you take the thick, about 30-40% of the mash (read; non-liquid) and raise it through a series of steps then boil it for a given period of time.

Enzymes are indeed denatured during this process. HOWEVER the lion's share of the enzymes are still alive and kicking in the thinner (liquid) portion left in the main mash. The boiled decotion is returned to the rest of the mash to raise the temperature of the bulk while the remaining enzymes left behind in the liquid are still in abundance to achieve the task at hand, namely the next temperature step of the mash as a whole.

Raise the temperature of your whole mash about 75c and the enzymes will denature at a fairly rapid rate. A good if not foolhardy test would be to do a single infusion mash at say 78c for 60 mins and possibly do an iodine test at the end. Either that or see how much unconverted starch gets washed through into your finished beer or how dextrinous or full-bodied it winds up. :unsure:

Warren -

[post="90506"][/post]​

Yep, right up to a point but also wrong to another Warren. You're right that a decoction doesn't denature the majority of the liquid and hence the majority of enzymes as they are left behind in the mash tun and not boiled. HOWEVER in a herms system all of the liquid passes through the heat exchanger coil (unlike a decocction), and hence all the enzymes are potentially exposed to denaturing temperatures. It doesn't happen all at once, but over time the whole of the mash liquir will pass through the heat exchanger, hence the rationale behind Batz approach which will hopefully mean that he doesn't need to set the heat exchanger temp much above his desired mash temp.

Cheers
MAH