Herms - Excessively Looong Ramp Time

[Sully]

Guys,

I am brewing now as I type and it has taken at least 1.5hrs to ramp from protein rest to sacc rest and I still cannot reach target temp.

This happened last brew and its really f*cking me off to say the least.

OK basically generic HERMS setup,

HE: 11.5L - 2200W element - 4.5m Copper Coil, insulated Silicone hoses, TempMate controlling the HE, probe at outlet of HE.

MT: SS Vessel Insulated, 1/2 deg drop over 1hr

Sorry for the profanity but if I cannot sort this thing out I'm giving up brewing because I am over itas I have had one disaster after another with this f*cking contraption and only on its 6th brew.

Any Idea of whats going on?

Cheers

Sully

EDIT: what is the ramifications of the long ramp have on the final product? Cheers

 

[Wisey]

Sounds like you've invested to heavily in your setup just to can it mate.

Setup your temp prob 5 degrees hotter then your needed temp?

 

[fcmcg]

Interesting considering i just put a post in about HE.
What diameter is the pipe in your HE ?
Is it a sep unit or in you HLT ?
Wondering if your coil is not big enough ? Too big ?
Pumping to fast ?

Screwy and Chappo seem to be the go to guys with HERMS...

Don't give up...seek the answers...and when they are posted here...we could all learn from them...

Sorry i can't help further at this stage....
Good luck
Ferg

 

[Sully]

Sounds like you've invested to heavily in your setup just to can it mate.

Setup your temp prob 5 degrees hotter then your needed temp?

Yeah I am going to but that really didnt help too much

Interesting considering i just put a post in about HE.
What diameter is the pipe in your HE ?
Is it a sep unit or in you HLT ?
Wondering if your coil is not big enough ? Too big ?
Pumping to fast ?

Screwy and Chappo seem to be the go to guys with HERMS...

Don't give up...seek the answers...and when they are posted here...we could all learn from them...

Sorry i can't help further at this stage....
Good luck
Ferg

What diameter is the pipe in your HE ? 1/2"

Is it a sep unit or in you HLT? Seperate

Wondering if your coil is not big enough? Too big? Im thinking not long enough

Pumping to fast? Flow has been restricted

Sorry i can't help further at this stage.... Thanks for the thought though.


Cheers

Sully

 

[TidalPete]

******** Sully! You'll never give brewing away & if you do I want your plate chiller. :lol:

Just sparging my first batch since upgrading my HE & it's a lot better & faster.
To my mind you have two options mate -----
1 --- try to add a smaller coil inside the existing one or
2 --- put your existing coil inside a seven litre Woolies pot to cut down the water volume like I did (Although I went up to 2200w from 1800w as well).

My ramp up time is now under 1 minute \1 deg c.

TP

PS --- All my valves are wide open during recirculation.

 

[jimmyjack]

Have you checked how fast your pump is reicirculating?How many Liters a minute is your pump putting out? Most of my problems arise from the pump loosing its prime. I always mash in low around 50 so I can get my pump sorted out and recircing properly before ramping. Hope that helps. I dont know how you have your pump set up but I finally installed a priming valve to flood my pump head and that helped me out immensely.

Cheers,

JJ

 

[browndog]

Hi Sully,
Interesting problem you have there, a bit hard to make any comments without seeing detailed photos of your system, for what it's worth, I'd be meauring the temp of the water in your HE and the temp of the wort exiting the HE for starters. If the temp in the HE is like 20C above your set point and the wort is not heating as it is travelling though the coil then it's running to fast. My rough guess is that for some reason your element is not getting the power it needs to heat the water in your HE, that or you are starting your mash off with cold water in the HE and it is taking too much time to heat the water and the HE coils.

cheers

Browndog

 

[TidalPete]

Have you checked how fast your pump is reicirculating?How many Liters a minute is your pump putting out? Most of my problems arise from the pump loosing its prime. I always mash in low around 50 so I can get my pump sorted out and recircing properly before ramping. Hope that helps. I dont know how you have your pump set up but I finally installed a priming valve to flood my pump head and that helped me out immensely.

Cheers,

JJ

A priming valve certainly saves a lot of bother JJ.
I would imagine that anyone familiar with their rig would notice any changes in the flow of wort during underletting\recirculation & this is where a priming valve comes into it's own as a quick solution.
Mash in at 42 deg c partly for the reasons you stated.

TP

PS --- Just saw your post Browndog. :icon_cheers: You make a fair point there. We mostly use elements from el-cheapo kettles & who knows how they compare with a more expensive element?

 

[Screwtop]

Betcha your return manifold is blocked. I use a pipe, no drilled holes or anything and it still blocks up. Open full bore until wort returns to your mash tun, then throttle back to about 1/4 flow for the ramp up. If you leave it full bore it will suck grist out and this will block the manifold, the trick is to just get the first runnings containing some grist through the coil then back off. Could also be that the grainbed has compacted if you've left the return valve at full bore.

Cheers,

Screwy

 

[newguy]

To save your brew day and your sanity, try directly wiring the HE's element to power so that it's 100% on. Monitor the mash temp manually and when it's about 2* below your setpoint, cut the power and see where it settles. You should be able to manually come close to your set temps this way. It will also tell you if it's your controller at fault because if the mash temp comes up quickly, it's definitely the controller. If not, it's the flow through the HE (too slow - either pump or blockage somewhere) or the HE composition itself (is it copper?).

 

[TidalPete]

:icon_offtopic:

As mentioned I am using my upgraded HE for the first time & had the mother of all blockages when first recirculating this morning . Turned out that whilst I had the HE disconnected for upgrading some bloody insect crawled into the recirc hose & built a nice little home of woven leaves. :angry:
A thorough blast with the hose through the system evicted the bugger once & for all.
The moral of this story is to keep everything closed up when not in use.

TP

 

[Sully]

******** Sully! You'll never give brewing away & if you do I want your plate chiller. :lol:

Just sparging my first batch since upgrading my HE & it's a lot better & faster.
To my mind you have two options mate -----
1 --- try to add a smaller coil inside the existing one or
2 --- put your existing coil inside a seven litre Woolies pot to cut down the water volume like I did (Although I went up to 2200w from 1800w as well).

My ramp up time is now under 1 minute \1 deg c.

TP

PS --- All my valves are wide open during recirculation.

I have all valves fully open and it still caused grief, but this last brew I put in a ball valve to restrict flow on the return inlet of the mash tun as there was too much pressure going thru the return manifold causing aeration.

Have you checked how fast your pump is reicirculating?How many Liters a minute is your pump putting out? Most of my problems arise from the pump loosing its prime. I always mash in low around 50 so I can get my pump sorted out and recircing properly before ramping. Hope that helps. I dont know how you have your pump set up but I finally installed a priming valve to flood my pump head and that helped me out immensely.

Cheers,

JJ

JJ, the pump is operating at full pressure as far as I can tell - there is definitely plenty of pressure there.

Also I do have a priming valve which eliminates hydraulic locks. That was another issue I battled earlier on which I fixed on brew #4.

Hi Sully,
Interesting problem you have there, a bit hard to make any comments without seeing detailed photos of your system, for what it's worth, I'd be meauring the temp of the water in your HE and the temp of the wort exiting the HE for starters. If the temp in the HE is like 20C above your set point and the wort is not heating as it is travelling though the coil then it's running to fast. My rough guess is that for some reason your element is not getting the power it needs to heat the water in your HE, that or you are starting your mash off with cold water in the HE and it is taking too much time to heat the water and the HE coils.

cheers

Browndog

Valid points - I will check them out. I did preheat the water in the HE so that scraps that part of the theory but the rest I will follow up on.




Well the latest is I managed to raise to mash-out in 25mins by overshooting the HE to 85deg. still too bloody long..

My theory, if that is worth anything, is something to do with the copper coil to water volume to element size ratio. there is nothing else I can think of, the rest of the system seems ok.




Cheers for the help guys. :icon_cheers:

Sully

 

[Sully]

Betcha your return manifold is blocked. I use a pipe, no drilled holes or anything and it still blocks up. Open full bore until wort returns to your mash tun, then throttle back to about 1/4 flow for the ramp up. If you leave it full bore it will suck grist out and this will block the manifold, the trick is to just get the first runnings containing some grist through the coil then back off. Could also be that the grainbed has compacted if you've left the return valve at full bore.

Cheers,

Screwy

Screwy, I have the same return manifold setup as yours, ie the pipe with the bent tab at the bottom, saw yours and thought that was the bomb so changed to it last brew. there is definitely wort flowing and at full pressure, I had to put in a ball valve to restrict the flow because I was getting aeration.

 

[Screwtop]

Screwy, I have the same return manifold setup as yours, ie the pipe with the bent tab at the bottom, saw yours and thought that was the bomb so changed to it last brew. there is definitely wort flowing and at full pressure, I had to put in a ball valve to restrict the flow because I was getting aeration.

Where are you measuring the temp for the next step Sully??

Screwy

 

[Sully]

Where are you measuring the temp for the next step Sully??

Screwy

At the Mash Tun with a Mashmaster (a different one from last brew also) and a thermometer.

The probe for the HE control is in a thermowell at the exit of the HE which is reading at the stepped temp ie. the HE probe reads 64deg, the Mashmaster reads 55deg and the thermometer reads 55deg when inserted in the grist (when I checked it).

Which brings me to a new theory, I wonder if the TempMate is reading correct?? The only way I could raise to the last few degrees was to set the HE to 70deg...

I will check it.

 

[Sammus]

same thing happened to me Sully, I just gave up on HERMS instead of brewing I had 6m in a 5L vessel with a 2200W element, pumping through at about 1L/min and for some reason even though the wort was the right temp exiting the HE, it just wasn't warming up the mash noticeably... biggest failed experiment ever...

I'd say f*ck HERMS, theyre bloody useless contraptions decoctions for step mashing is the way to go.

 

[chappo1970]

Firstly your givin' up brewing over my dead lifeless stone cold body. FULL STOP. :icon_cheers:

Mate your set up is my set up I modelled mine from yours, in fact you helped build mine FFS! the only diff is I have 6m of coil in the HE. Ramp times I have been gettin' 1C per min so I would think you should be somewhere there maybe a little behind because of the lesser exposure of the wort to the HE bath but should be a matter of seconds not minutes.

Anyways I'm heading up 1stly to kick your white ***** *** for even suggesting givin' up brewing :angry: 2ndly I had to have a massive barney with SWMBO to get a leave pass to drop your crafty stuff to ya for tomorrow (not your issue Mate you know what a stubborn arsehole i can be yeah? :super: ) and 3rdly a fresh set of eyes can spot something simple that may be astray or missed?

Leaving in about 20min see ya soon!

 

[Sully]

******** Sully! You'll never give brewing away & if you do I want your plate chiller. :lol:

:lol: - dont worry TP, just having a rant session cause I am pissed off

 

[real_beer]

Guys,

I am brewing now as I type and it has taken at least 1.5hrs to ramp from protein rest to sacc rest and I still cannot reach target temp.

This happened last brew and its really f*cking me off to say the least.

OK basically generic HERMS setup,

HE: 11.5L - 2200W element - 4.5m Copper Coil, insulated Silicone hoses, TempMate controlling the HE, probe at outlet of HE.

MT: SS Vessel Insulated, 1/2 deg drop over 1hr

Sorry for the profanity but if I cannot sort this thing out I'm giving up brewing because I am over it as I have had one disaster after another with this f*cking contraption and only on its 6th brew.

Any Idea of whats going on?

Cheers

Sully

EDIT: what is the ramifications of the long ramp have on the final product? Cheers

Hi Sully
I'm in the process of building a HERMS system at the moment so I can't give experienced feedback, but all the research I've done so far highlights that its really important to have the water in the hot water tank moving around the coils. I don't know if you stir the water in your system but it might be a thing to look at.

 

[Screwtop]

same thing happened to me Sully, I just gave up on HERMS instead of brewing I had 6m in a 5L vessel with a 2200W element, pumping through at about 1L/min and for some reason even though the wort was the right temp exiting the HE, it just wasn't warming up the mash noticeably... biggest failed experiment ever...

I'd say f*ck HERMS, theyre bloody useless contraptions decoctions for step mashing is the way to go.

You gave up due to a lack of info, the temp of the wort exiting the herms IS your mash temp not the grainbed, lot of brewers make this mistake. The wort has to reach mash temp not the grainbed.

Cheers,

Screwy