Help with recurring infection...

[nathang28]

I am currently trying to solve a very frustrating problem I have... the last 4 brews now have been infected post primary fermentation, based on a taste test prior to kegging.

Previous to this, I had 12 brews which all worked perfect, one infected (suspect reused yeast cake which was too old), 4 worked perfect, now 4 in a row infected.

I am doing all grain BIAB, 40L Urn & no chill cube. Have had temp control on the last 8 or so brews. Ferment in 26L stainless kegs, with blow off tube via gas post.

Last batch (Smurto Golden Ale) I paid particular attention to my cleaning regime, with everything getting a good soak in napisan + pure sodium perc (50/50), followed by a good soak in Starsan.

Was confident that would fix the issue, but after returning from holidays (fermenter kept at 18C) and tested before kegging but same issue. arrgh!

Infection is the same every time, so that is consistent. The beer is always cloudy, smells "yeasty" in a way a clean fermented batch does not, and tastes WAY too bitter (I suspect from off flavours from the infectee).

The only suspect I have left is the stone on my oxygen wand (kit from brewman). My current procedure with that is to soak in starsan, turn oxygen on when in the starsan, aerate the wort, then place back in starsan for a few seconds before shutting off the oxygen. Could this still leave some residual wort on the stone which is harbouring something nasty?

Any other ideas? I have a Smurto Hobgoblin ready to go next and don't want to dump a third lot of it down the sink....

Cheers,

Nathan.

 

[Danscraftbeer]

Boil the airstone and the hose in Sanitiser solution. Thats what I do every time. I use the pure Phosphoric Acid for diluted sanitiser because its not frothy and it goes a lot further too. 1ml per 2lt water.
If the hose is too long to boil it I have a ~50cm length that I boil and connects to the long hose on the O2 bottle.

 

[wide eyed and legless]

Other than what Dan said above, give a squirt of oxygen into the head space without touching the wort, seal up and give the fermenter a shake to get the oxygen into the beer. I have read of a few people doing this who worry about infections from airstones / wands. If fitness is an issue do what my old man does and put the fermenter into one of these and rock it backwards and forwards for a minute.

 

[FarsideOfCrazy]

There used to be a guy on this forum, Tony is his handle, the guy started what's in the glass commercial. He had run of infections that he could not find the source. After about a year be cut open his 1 piece ball valve on his kettle. The black stuff that was in there was pretty filthy and the source of the infection.

This is a place that no matter how much cleaning and circulating of different cleaning solutions, it will not clean.

I've tried to find the thread but its gone. There were some lovely photos.

Once I saw that I only use 3 piece ball valves that way they can be cleaned properly.

 

[Black Devil Dog]

Definitely boil the airstone, the wand is a bit long to fit into anything to boil, so sanitise that.

Pretty much anything that can be boiled or given a bath in boiling hot water, should be. Before and after use.

With cubes, fermenters and kegs, I pour a kettle full of boiling hot water into them and seal them up to let the heat and steam do their thing.

Kegs and cubes get a vigorous shaking with boiling water to build up the pressure caused by the steam.

 

[Mr. No-Tip]

Caustic the air stone. Even better.

Definitely check that ball valve.

Replace all soft fittings.

Break the keg down and separately clean all fittings.



Does it taste infected from fermenter or could it possibly coming in at the transfer side?

 

[malt junkie]

Just caustic everything

 

[Black Devil Dog]

Just caustic everything

Just not your eyes.

 

[dr K]

Sodium Percarbonate is a great sanitizer but its not enough. Looks like you rely on it for your fermentor cleaning. Any organic build up will not be moved by sodium perc....you need caustic and you need it big time...use a 5% solution in hot water (with the correct handling procedure)...this means in a 26 litre fermentor you need 1.3kg.
Let it soak, put the solution aside for re-use or why not just use it in your boiler as well, regardless save some to soak your tap in (both the boiler and the fermentor).
Your airstone procedure seems fine , but hey a good Caustic won't hurt.
After rinsing finish off with starsan to neutralize any remaining caustic, rinse and dry.
K

 

[Danscraftbeer]

Since your using Stainless consider heat treatment for everything. As well as the fact that you can boil diluted Phosphoric Acid sanitiser. Double kill on bacteria. Quite friendly/harmless substances to use etc. I am totally Caustic phobic it is truley nasty stuff and needs a decent education and great caution on using it. I never use it. If you were using plastic fermenters I'd give the harder word that its probably no good to use anymore but stainless you'll get over this problem and then it's Gravy!

 

[nathang28]

Thankyou everyone some great advice to consider.

I want to nail the cause, so boiling the air stone is the next change. Have brewed the Hobgoblin so will put in the fermenter tomorrow (Sunday).

During cleanup today I have boiled the air stone in starsan for 10 minutes for an initial clean, will do again tomorrow before filling the FV.

Last brew I did disassemble the ball valve on the kettle and gave it a good clean (and all associated pieces), there was a little gunk in there but all gone now (and that brew also ended up infected, so am ruling that out as the cause for now).

I will start replacing things if the air stone clean does not work, it's no good replacing a bunch of stuff all at once, even if the problem is fixed I won't know the actual cause, so one thing at a time.

Fly to Mumbai for work Monday, so will update when I get back home in 2 weeks time and sample... Mind you, even the infected beer may taste good after 2 weeks in India, but I am determined to see if I can find some decent beer over there! hehehe

Cheers,

Nathan.

 

[nathang28]

So got back from my work trip yesterday and sampled the Hobgoblin... Same infection.

Was slightly reduced from last time.

But still needs to be dumped. I checked out the silicon hose that I use to siphon from No-Chill Cube to Fermenter, and it looks like a petri dish...

This tube was cleaned and sanitised 2 weeks ago, so I think the culprit definitely is this silicon tube. It will now be replaced, but leads to another question which is, how do I avoid this in the future? Get some bungs and keep it filled with starsan between uses? Use a harder/smoother walled tubing?

Cheers,

Nathan.

 

[Dae Tripper]

Use one of these, it gets some oxygen in too. But get it from Plasdene
http://keg-king.com.au/tap-in-cap-cube-tap-with-venting-valve.html

 

[Black Devil Dog]

Ditch the tube altogether. Pour the wort straight out of the cube and into the fermenter if you can.

Tubes and taps are potential hiding places for microscopic varmits.

 

[nathang28]

That's a good suggestion. I may actually ditch the cube all together too...

I can drain straight from the urn into the fermenter (keg), let it cool down overnight and oxy/pitch the next day.

Cheers,

Nathan.

 

[thumbsucker]

I boil all my silicone tubing. I make sour and clean beers (also why I prefer stainless) and am to cheap to have two sets, so I put all my tubing into caustic soda for a few days after I use them to break up dirt and then I boil to 20 minutes, and before I use them I soak in starsan. I have used the same hosing for sour and clean beers and no cross contamination problems.

 

[nathang28]

I boil all my silicone tubing. I make sour and clean beers (also why I prefer stainless) and am to cheap to have two sets, so I put all my tubing into caustic soda for a few days after I use them to break up dirt and then I boil to 20 minutes, and before I use them I soak in starsan. I have used the same hosing for sour and clean beers and no cross contamination problems.

Thanks thumbs, I think I will follow a similar regime in the future for any tubing. I think the sterilisation step (ie: boiling) is needed for the silicon tubing, given what I have observed.

Cheers, Nathan.

 

[manticle]

Also don't rely solely on cleaning and sanitising from 2 weeks ago (if I read that correctly). Yes, clean immediately after use but things like silicon, I boil (from cold water so I know the object is thoroughly pasteurised) directly before use, then sanitise with no rinse.

 

[Danscraftbeer]

So got back from my work trip yesterday and sampled the Hobgoblin... Same infection.

Was slightly reduced from last time.View attachment 110619

But still needs to be dumped. I checked out the silicon hose that I use to siphon from No-Chill Cube to Fermenter, and it looks like a petri dish...

View attachment 110620

This tube was cleaned and sanitised 2 weeks ago, so I think the culprit definitely is this silicon tube. It will now be replaced, but leads to another question which is, how do I avoid this in the future? Get some bungs and keep it filled with starsan between uses? Use a harder/smoother walled tubing?

Cheers,

Nathan.

I too boil my hoses in sanitizer as well. Heat treatment wherever and whatever possible just prior to using it. Coil the hose in the pot, boil and swirl it in circles so the sanitizer flows through the hose. Leave it sit in the hot sanitizer right to the moment you use it.

 

[nathang28]

Thanks to everyone's advice, I have solved the issue. Now certain it was the silicon hose.

Last brew day I drained the wort straight into my kegmenter, no chill. The silicon hose i used was boiled in Starsan for 5 mins prior to use. Chilled overnight, then into the fermentation fridge to get down to temp. Pitched (rehydrated dry yeast) and oxy'd (oxygen wand and stone boiled in starsan for 5 mins).

Fast forward nearly two weeks, and the beer was spot on when I kegged it.

Due to the wort going directly into the kegmenter, I got more trub than normal, so am upgrading my urn to include a wort strainer to minimise trub pickup when draining after whirlpool.

It has simplified my brewing process, so will stick with it for a while and see how it goes. don't have to worry about the cube, and no cold side silicon tubes to worry about. The kegmenter has a bit of headspace when the wort is drained into it, but the wort is still 90C+ and the headspace is filled with starsan foam. Stays hot for quite a while too, so I reckon it should be sanitising the headspace effectively (will monitor this for future batches).

Cheers,

Nathan.