Has Robobrew overtaken Grainfather for product price point?

[Feldon]

Because;
a. Measuring takes time and chefs typically are under immense pressure, and
b. Errors in measuring out ingredients for food don't impact the final product nearly as much as in beer. Also, professional kitchens have pre-measured quantities of base ingredients (ie meats, vegetables).

Are you suggesting that any good brewer should be able to weigh out 5kg of pale malt without scales.. when the technology and time is available in generous quantities?

Any brewer who did that would indeed be bringing more craftmanship to his brewing than me. But yes, that's what craftmanship is.

(and I hope people are starting begin the long journey of understanding in their bones what craftmanship is really about. It can be uncomfortable, and certainly can't be bought for $599 from a homebrew shop).

 

[bwhouse]

Any brewer who did that would indeed be bringing more craftmanship to his brewing than me. But yes, that's what craftmanship is.

(and I hope people are starting begin the long journey of understanding in their bones what craftmanship is really about. It can be uncomfortable, and certainly can't be bought for $599 from a homebrew shop).

Even if you go with this definition of craftsmanship, essentially the equipment has nothing to do with it. A chef could make the same dish using any pots and pans. Likewise a brewer can be a true craftsman and make any brew on any equipment. Yes a brewer needs to understand why you need to control things like temp but you don't need to build your own equipment to gain that understanding, reading and beginning to learn about the science behind brewing is where this comes from.

 

[mtb]

It sounds to me that you see brewing as more of a pissing contest than a simple common goal, which is to make good beer. Your opinions are your own but I don't think the vast majority of this forum would share them.

 

[bwhouse]

Full disclosure: I bought (well my wife did) a Grainfather this morning and it's first brew is boiling away. Yes I am very happy with my purchase.

 

[manticle]

No, that's silly (and you know it is).

You more than others should know what I mean by craftmanship, as I take it from previos posts you have spent many years in professional kitchens. There you would have seen craftmanship at work - they are called chefs. Do properly trained chefs measure out the quantities they need for a recipe? Not always, and for some dishes never. They know by sight, taste, smell, touch or sound how much to add - how much vinegar to add to the mayonaise, how much salt to season the broth etc. They are craftsmen. They have learned their craft from their master as an apprentice, and testing themselves time and time again until they got it right. For a hundred common dishes they don't need recipe books. They know how ingredients perform together. The same goes for the application of heat. A recipe might say "cook on a medium heat for 5 minutes". A chef will just cook it till its right, using his senses to inform his memory.

Compare properly trained chefs to the recipe-following cooks who have no idea why a certain volume or weight on an ingredient is needed, or why 5 minutes instead of 4:30 seconds - just measure it all out and blindly follow the recipe. They may still produce a "good" product. But one is made by a chef and one by a cook.

Some beers are made by craftsmen, some beer, perhaps as good, is just made.

Yes it is silly. As silly as the idea that end product quality has no relationship to the level of craftsmanship involved.

As far as chefs go-
Actually many, many brilliant chefs that I encountered were anal about measuring to the nth degree. It was actually part of their craft to see them get so fixated on minutiae. I knew a shitload of average cooks who chucked in a bit of this and a pinch of that and thought it was good food.

I grant that there are brilliant craftspeople on the other side of the scale as well. Thus, to my mind, technology use (whether with or without) actually has very, very little bearing on any of it. True craftspeople exist outside that frame of reference.

 

[manticle]

Also your argument is based on the premise that a robo/gf whatever makes beer.

It does that no more than an oven or frypan makes a filet mignon.

 

[mtb]

manticle.. shouldn't you be threatening to trim the thread because it's way OT? :lol: or is that Barls' territory only?

 

[Feldon]

It sounds to me that you see brewing as more of a pissing contest than a simple common goal, which is to make good beer. Your opinions are your own but I don't think the vast majority of this forum would share them.

You might want "to make make good beer". Me too. But here I'm talking about crafting good beer.

If you haven't started to understand the difference by now you probably don't want to.

 

[manticle]

Be a bit rich to mod the ot discussion I'm involved in and nothing so far is especially nasty or otherwise in breach of guidelines.

Merely slightly tangential. Other mods may disagree but at this stage I say carry on.

 

[manticle]

Because;
a. Measuring takes time and chefs typically are under immense pressure, and
b. Errors in measuring out ingredients for food don't impact the final product nearly as much as in beer. Also, professional kitchens have pre-measured quantities of base ingredients (ie meats, vegetables).

The chef that excuses not measuring because of pressure likely gets their arse kicked.

As for impact - might depend somewhat on the dish but try that idea with a good pastry chef and see how far you get.

 

[mtb]

If you haven't started to understand the difference by now you probably don't want to.

Please, enlighten me. Does simply having a computer chip in a piece of computer equipment make your beer no longer "crafted"? You do realise your fermentation fridge/chamber has such technology in it?
I'm keen mostly to know where you draw the line between "hand crafted" and the devil's lettuce you seem so opposed to.

 

[mtb]

The chef that excuses not measuring because of pressure likely gets their arse kicked.

As for impact - might depend somewhat on the dish but try that idea with a good pastry chef and see how far you get.

Definitely pastry chefs need to use precision, I was referring more to savoury dishes and the such, where herbs/vegetable additions are thrown together. Got that much exp from my previous line of work and a brother who is a professional chef in some swanky Sydney area.

 

[mugley]

Not sure about how the Robobrew temp controller works, but on the Grainfather it's a detached box which the pump and heating plug into. If you throw the box away and hook the pump and heating up manually, there's not a computer chip in sight.

I'm struggling to comprehend how doing such a thing would make anybody more craftsperson-like.

 

[manticle]

I have no formal training and used to be quite unhandy. With some professional experience/personal trial and error/research, some of my own intelligence and a little bit of demo/short course stuff I can weld delicate mounts, build and fitout custom art crates and make archival board and cloth lined custom timber boxes.

One guy who works for me is a trained, experienced carpenter. He uses same tools I do (some hand but mostly power), measures everything twice and makes far superior product (aesthetics and structure) than I probably ever will. While my conceptual level of knowledge specific to what we are making supersedes his currently (experience) he'll get that soon enough.

Is he not a craftperson because the router is powered? Because he uses a measuring tape or makes a jig?

Sometimes I bang my screws in by eye. My laziness does not make me crafty*

*my crates still look nice so shut up.

 

[Feldon]

Please, enlighten me. Does simply having a computer chip in a piece of computer equipment make your beer no longer "crafted"? You do realise your fermentation fridge/chamber has such technology in it?
I'm keen mostly to know where you draw the line between "hand crafted" and the devil's lettuce you seem so opposed to.

No, you must read and understand what I have said.

In answer to you question, it would mean that the beer is less crafted.

Edit: Less crafted as the same beer of equal quality brewed on non-computerised equipment.

 

[mtb]

it would mean that the beer is less crafted

Would you attribute these things to a percentage of "less-craftedness"?

Using a fermentation fridge: 7%
Using a temp controller in your mash: 15%
Using a motorised grain mill: 11%
Using an electronic thermometer: 6%
Using an electronic pH meter: 24% (this is a big no no boys and girls)
Using a refractomerer: 16%

If you get into negative "craftedness" a pair of men in white suits will come get you in your sleep and you'll be conscripted to work at CUB

 

[manticle]

No, you must read and understand what I have said.

Maybe you need to examine the rationality of what you've said. It's not a lack of comprehension of the concept you've presented: rather an umbrage with the logical journey preceeding it.

 

[Brownsworthy]

Ok guys, but has the Robobrew overtaken Grainfather for product price point?

 

[Feldon]

Would you attribute these things to a percentage of "less-craftedness"?

Using a fermentation fridge: 7%
Using a temp controller in your mash: 15%
Using a motorised grain mill: 11%
Using an electronic thermometer: 6%
Using an electronic pH meter: 24% (this is a big no no boys and girls)
Using a refractomerer: 16%

If you get into negative "craftedness" a pair of men in white suits will come get you in your sleep and you'll be conscripted to work at CUB

“And what is good, Phaedrus, and what is not good - need we ask anyone to tell us these things?”

Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values

 

[wide eyed and legless]

Would be interesting if Mrs Beeton could return from the dead and see the progress made in household gadgets, she'd be glad to see the back of the mangle, dolly tub, flat iron and pulley maid but be surprised that men were now making home brewed beer still brewing in a bag FFS.