Group Barley Wine

[pmastello]

Hi everyone, I thought I would start a thread for a Brew club activity of a group brew of a Barley wine.

Basically, interested brewers state their interest in brewing a beer together. After a bit of discussion here on what the recipe will be - we will all get together one weekend at Toukley Homebrew shop and brew about 200L of a barley wine. We all split the cost between us all, so it should end up pretty cheap.


After its brewed, we cube it up and everyone can take home 20L of wort to ferment at home. The one requirement is that we all use a different yeast.

Then once its all fermented, everyone bottles it up and we swap around our beers. That way we get a case of different barley wines to age and taste over time.

So - Who's in?

 

[mr_wibble]

Aye!

An English Barley Wine?
Recipe?
Geeze, that means I need to find 20 litres of bottles - probably smaller ones.

I don't have an "under the house" ... maybe I could bury it.

-kt

 

[pmastello]

Nah, doesn't have to be English. We want to come up with a recipe that can lend itself to different yeasts - An American neutral yeast, a fruity english yeast, Belgian yeast, even a lager yeast! Hops will be the hardest choice here I think.
Yeah, I'll need to find some smaller bottles too - haven't got many lying around, I'll have to start collecting.

 

[Goldenchild]

Count me in Pete. Wanted to do this one for a long time now.
I have a friend who is also interested so how many of us would that make?
I am thinkng of using wy9097 old ale which has a brett strain in it.
I would also love to chuck some in the wine barrel but oxidisation could be a problem if its not full.
Cheers Marc

 

[pmastello]

You could still Oak it with some chips or cubes if you wanted. How's your barrel saison going? Still got some left? I've found mine was too oaky initially and now is fading a bit.
Good luck getting that Old ale yeast - its a private collection from a year ago. But if you can, awesome, it would be perfect for this. If you can't, they say Roselare is tolerant of upto 11%...

So far we have with yeast preferences-
Pete - Lager yeast
Josh - ?
Kt - ?
Marc - Old Ale
Marc's mate - ?

Still got room for quite a few more people if there's interest!

 

[Goldenchild]

Hmm didnt think of oak chipping perhaps I will take 40L and oak half in a glass carboy. Thats if we don't have more takers.
I was browsing craftbrewer lastnight and it says they still have some old ale from dec12 might need a few packets and a big starter but should still be viable. What size are we thinking anyway? 10%?


That saison is tasting great! I am still getting to the bottom of the first keg. All reports are saying it has been getting better and better.

 

[Jaynus]

After an hour of sorting out this app I'm finally here! I'm "Marc's mate" but I go by the name of jay! I'm down for this brew and will get back tomorrow night with a yeast!

 

[brockerst]

Count me in!

I'll have a think about yeast selection. I want to say saison, but am too scared to.

Brock

 

[silvana]

I'm very interested.
Looks like I might actually be able to make Aprils meeting too after living on the coast for a year.

As for yeast I'll put my hand up for 100% Brett ferment with the strain pending further research

Ben

 

[pmastello]

Now it looks like we've got enough people to make this happen. There's still room for more people to join up though!
I am waiting to hear back from Duane on the size of his mash tun to work out exactly how much beer we can make and how many batches it will produce, I will report back when I hear. But even if we top out, you can still get involved, helping out with the brew day and with costs and you will get a share of the beer at the end. The more the merrier.

So far we have -
Pete - Lager
Josh - ?
Kt - ?
Marc - Old Ale
Jay - ?
Brock - Saison (Don't be scared!)
Ben - Brett

Jeez, no one here likes standard Barley wine yeasts, do they?! Any volunteers for Scottish ale yeast or 1056? A Belgian yeast would be good too. Cool if you don't though, you can use a wheat beer yeast if you want!


Does anyone have ideas for a recipe? Personally I've never brewed a barley wine before, so I'm open to suggestions. I was thinking around 10%

 

[Jaynus]

I'll have a stab at the Scottish ale yeast! 10% sounds good to me!

 

[Jaynus]

Scrap that! Safale US-05 for me!

 

[Jaynus]

Pete - Lager
Josh - ?
KT - ?
Marc - Old Ale
Jay - safale US-05
Brock - Saison (Don't be scared!)
Ben - Brett

 

[pmastello]

Dry yeast is probably a good idea, much easier to buy a few packs instead of growing up a huge starter.

This is the recipe I have so far. Please have some input into this because I've never brewed a Barley wine before and I pretty much made this up. No hops yet, I was thinking of bittering to about 70-90 IBU. No idea of which hops to use. Aussie (Galaxy) or NZ hops? Or American or English.

Group Barley Wine
American Barley wine

Type: All Grain
Batch Size (fermenter): 180.00 l Boil Size: 200.00 l
Boil Time: 120 min
Brewhouse Efficiency: 60.00 % Est Mash Efficiency 60.0 %

Est Original Gravity: 1.090 SG Est Final Gravity: 1.014 SG Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 10.0 %

Ingredients
Amt
60.00 kg Pale Malt, Traditional Ale (Joe White) (5.9 EBC) 71.4 %
15.00 kg Munich, Light (Joe White) (17.7 EBC) 17.9 %
5.00 kg Crystal (Joe White) (141.8 EBC) 6.0 %
1.00 kg Chocolate Malt (Joe White) (750.6 EBC) 1.2 %
1.00 kg Crystal, Dark (Joe White) (216.7 EBC) 1.2 %
2.00 kg Sugar, Table (Sucrose) (2.0 EBC) 2.4 %

Total Grain Weight: 84.00 kg
Mash Name: Single Infusion, Light Body, No Mash Out - Infusion 64C

 

[brockerst]

I've never brewed a barley wine either, and only ever tasted a couple but here's some input.

How big is the mash tun?

The trick with this recipe is going to be to get a good balance so that different yeasts with different attenuation rates don't mean too dry or too sweet an end product.

I think the FG and the mash temp in this recipe is a bit low and may lead to relatively dry (for a barley wine) with some yeasts.

Hopping will be a similar issue. Different yeasts will mean different FGs. 90 IBUs is probably too much with an FG of 1.014 but would work nice with an FG of 1.024.

My vote is for American hops with a nice flavour hit. Aroma is probably a waste due to ageing.

I'll use a Saison yeast. I plan to use the yeast cake of a small Saison rather than try and grow a huge starter.




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[stakka82]

This is a great idea, good luck guys, if I lived closer I would be in!

 

[pmastello]

Yeah, you are right Brock, that FG is too low. That's just what Beer smith calculated, which is about 83% attenuation. I don't think we would actually get that low with a OG that high. You might if you use Belgian Saison yeast, but the rest of us will probably conk out somewhere in the 20's. But still, maybe knock the mash temp up to 66C then?

I think a higher IBU is a good thing as IBU's will drop out over time. The best I can come up with is from Fundamentals of Beer and Hop Chemistry, 2/3 of the hop bitterness in wort has a half-life in excess of 5 years, and the remaining 1/3 as a half-life of 1 year. So, if you leave a beer for 1 year, it's IBUs will have decreased to 75% of its original value. For example, an 80 IBU beer will have 60 IBUs after 1 year.

Plus this measure of 80->60 IBU is measured, rather than calculated. A lot of the IBU equations don't work so well for higher OG's or IBU's, so basically we are flying in the dark here. Maybe we can look at the IBU's on some aged commercial or Homebrewed examples. Or just pick a number. I'd vote for about 80 IBU.


As for Mash Tun size, I had a chat to Duane on the weekend, he doesn't know exactly how much malt it will take, so maybe we can cap it 7 people (160L).

 

[joshuahardie]

I'll be using a English ale yeast, like wlp007, 1098, or even the dry safale equivalent.

I am happy with the Aussie hops, 90+ ibu.

I have done some 10% stouts before so I'll go back through my records and see what I have done in the past.

I don't know how big duanes mash tun is, but remember we can always add liquid base malt to get the gravity up

 

[mr_wibble]

Wyeast 3463 - Forbidden Fruit, tolerance 12%

 

[brockerst]

Ok so we might end up with a range of yeast attenuation rates of between 65% and 85%. Do we adjust for that somehow, eg finishing them off with a wine yeast? Or do we accept that this project is all about the variation between yeasts and let the cards fall where they may?

We may need to increase OG if we want an average of 10% to perhaps 1.1.

My first instinct is to go Australian hops too, but what would you use? I don't trust galaxy as a bitterer.

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[joshuahardie]

Have you tried topaz? Nice hop, heaps of AA

I think go for a generic recipe, and let the yeasts speak for themselves.

 

[mr_wibble]

Aussie hops ... VIC Secret?

I don't use high-alpha hops usually, so have no experience/opinion on these.

Aside: Wikipedia says Summer has "light apricot and melon fruit notes", that might work really well in a wheat beer.

I'm not much of a hop-head, so being bereft of other ideas: Fuggles?

 

[joshuahardie]

Vic secret would be good. Havn't used that before
for the initial bittering charge, I would not be getting too concerned about the hop type, I would be going just for AA.

With a beer that is likely to be so malt dominant, Id be happy with anything,

I am sure it has been said, but I think we are going to need a starting gravity of 1.100

and like I said before, I am not opposed to topping up with liquid pale extract to get to the gravity, and some sugar to help reach FG even if I feed it 3/4 the way through fermentation.

 

[joshuahardie]

Dry yeast is probably a good idea, much easier to buy a few packs instead of growing up a huge starter.

This is the recipe I have so far. Please have some input into this because I've never brewed a Barley wine before and I pretty much made this up. No hops yet, I was thinking of bittering to about 70-90 IBU. No idea of which hops to use. Aussie (Galaxy) or NZ hops? Or American or English.

Group Barley Wine
American Barley wine

Type: All Grain
Batch Size (fermenter): 180.00 l Boil Size: 200.00 l
Boil Time: 120 min
Brewhouse Efficiency: 60.00 % Est Mash Efficiency 60.0 %

Est Original Gravity: 1.090 SG Est Final Gravity: 1.014 SG Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 10.0 %

Ingredients
Amt
60.00 kg Pale Malt, Traditional Ale (Joe White) (5.9 EBC) 71.4 %
15.00 kg Munich, Light (Joe White) (17.7 EBC) 17.9 %
5.00 kg Crystal (Joe White) (141.8 EBC) 6.0 %
1.00 kg Chocolate Malt (Joe White) (750.6 EBC) 1.2 %
1.00 kg Crystal, Dark (Joe White) (216.7 EBC) 1.2 %
2.00 kg Sugar, Table (Sucrose) (2.0 EBC) 2.4 %

Total Grain Weight: 84.00 kg
Mash Name: Single Infusion, Light Body, No Mash Out - Infusion 64C

Good start on the recipe Pete.
My feeling is that the dark crystal is not needed, given the choc malt? anyway it is a discussion point.

as a contrast I have recipes for other barleywines
stone old guardian which has pale and crystal only
nogne100 which has pale, wheat and choc only.

I have no care about colour or anything like that, but more looking at it from a KISS perspective.

Also, do we have a date penciled in. I can do midweek if needed.

 

[pmastello]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Yeah, simplifying the recipe is not a bad idea to let the yeasts showoff a bit more. Something similar to the Old Guardian?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Bump up the Pale to 97% with 3% Dark Crystal? Or 3% Choc? I don't think wheat would offer much. Maybe some Munich? And we will shoot for 1.100, if we go too far under, adding some sugar mid way through the ferment is a great idea for a gravity bump.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Malt extract is definitely in the contingency plan. I was thinking of using DME though, as using bittered/hopped liquid extracts may be tricky. Can we get unhopped liquid extract easily?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]As for hops, I’ve never used Vic secret, but I would be really hesitant to use it for bittering as it has a huge co-humulone percentage (51-56%) which is not good. All of the high AA% aussie hops have high co-humolone, great for aroma but not so good for bittering.Maybe a dedicated American Bittering hop like Horizon or Warrior? Or maybe go NZ hops like Pacfic Jade? How about we dump a heap of Galaxy in at the end for a flavour and Aroma punch (S&W pacific ale-barley wine [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]J[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt])? We can use a heap as most of it will drop out as we age it.[/SIZE]

 

[joshuahardie]

I don't have a concrete idea on a recipe, i was just throwing a few ideas out there.

I am fine with your base of pale and munich, and the crystal/choc for colour/flavour i would not be going more than those 4 malts.

Lets see what others say.

unhopped wort is very easy to come by, every HBS would have it. coopers make, light, amber, pils, wheat
Good rule of thumb is, if the tin comes with yeast, it is hopped.


thanks for the tips on the hops, I am not massivly aware of the bittering / aroma numbers.

 

[pmastello]

Final(?) list of yeasts - Pretty good selection I reckon!

Pete - Lager
Josh - English (007, 1098 or Dry)
KT - Wyeast 3463 - Forbidden Fruit (Nice choice!)
Marc - Old Ale
Jay - safale US-05
Brock - Saison
Ben - Brett

 

[joshuahardie]

Pete - Lager
Josh - WhiteLabs WLP007 Dry English Ale
KT - Wyeast 3463 - Forbidden Fruit (Nice choice!)
Marc - Old Ale
Jay - safale US-05
Brock - Saison
Ben - Brett

 

[pmastello]

http://www.brewtoad.com/recipes/central-coast-brewers-barley-wine

 

[brockerst]

If we're keeping the recipe simple, how about

Marris Otter 95 %
Crystal 5%

Simcoe is a good smooth bitterer. Whatever hop we choose, we'll probably need at least 1kg.