Help Support Aussie Homebrewer by donating:

  1. We have implemented the ability to gift someone a Supporting Membership now! When you access the Upgrade page there is now a 'Gift' button. Once you click that you can enter a username to gift an account Upgrade to. Great way to help support this forum plus give some kudos to anyone who has helped you.
    Dismiss Notice

Grain Bill Question

Discussion in 'General Brewing Techniques' started by axematt, 24/1/20.

 

  1. axematt

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    21/7/18
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    5
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Adelaide
    Posted 24/1/20
    I posted something earlier which I thought I had worked out but alas..No.

    After 20 K&K brews I'm looking at doing my first AG (well BIAB) in a couple of weeks and I have a question, If I see a recipe and it is for a 45L batch, how do I recalculate that for a 20-23L batch. Sorry if this is a newbie question...but I;m a newbie.

    Cheers
     
  2. MHB

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    30/9/05
    Messages:
    5,577
    Likes Received:
    2,994
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Newcastle
    Posted 24/1/20
    You need to look at where the (i.e. 45L) batch is measured, it might be what is called "Kettle Full" the volume in the kettle at the end of the boil (technically that would be corrected 20oC for thermal expansion of 4%). It might be the knockout (what goes into the fermenter.
    Either way you need to know your kettle loss (the amount left in the kettle after you run off to the fermenter) and work out the total volume you are making and the volume the recipe is designed to make and scale accordingly.
    Sadly many home brewing recipes aren't really that rigorously thought through so are often a bit short of information.
    The other bit of thing you need is your efficiency and that of the recipe. Clearly if you have a better efficiency you need less malt to make a given volume of beer at a given gravity, other way works to.

    Not trying to make it sound too complex, but brewing is full of complex answers to what appear to be simple questions.

    Starting out do a simple beer, keep records of what you used and what you get from it and make adjustments accordingly for next brew. Lacking more information if you are making half as much beer you use half as much malt, all things being equal which they wont be, but you wont be miles away either.
    Mark

    PS
    BIAB is All Grain Brewing, don't apologise its a great way to get into AG brewing.
    M
     
    MaggieO and razz like this.
  3. axematt

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    21/7/18
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    5
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Adelaide
    Posted 24/1/20
    Thanks MHB.

    So maybe go for a SMASH type brew where things are pretty simple and just get used to the method and then I guess shoot a little higher. Looking at some of the grain bills in some recipes, I'm thinking shit, how many types of grain do you need on hand to make these different recipes!
     
  4. MHB

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    30/9/05
    Messages:
    5,577
    Likes Received:
    2,994
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Newcastle
    Posted 24/1/20
    I've always thought people should get to use a second malt when they can brew as well as Budvar do with just one.
    Something like 90% of all the traditional UK pales, bitters and ESB's could be described as Base Malt and up to 10% Crystal. That all it takes to make a lot of really great beers.
    Overcomplex recipes aren't a good way to learn, I think a lot of them are designed to hide bad brewing.
    So yes do some simple (inexpensive) brews, work out what you system does, identify any problems early on and fix them.
    Welcome to the dark side.
    Mark
     
    JDW81 and MaggieO like this.
  5. axematt

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    21/7/18
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    5
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Adelaide
    Posted 24/1/20
    Thanks mate. Will take that all on board. Might do a little grain research to find out exactly what they do instead of blindly following a recipe. I haven't been this excited about brewing since I first started. Bring it on!!
     
  6. mongey

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    24/6/14
    Messages:
    752
    Likes Received:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Thirroul
    Posted 24/1/20
    What type of beer are you wanting to make?

    FWIW

    I do simple biab brewing. I generally make 22
    To 23 l batches. First few brews will be a bit of guessing as you work out your system.

    when accounting for losses , usually about 4 l , 6kg of grain gets me 23 l of wort At 1050. Sometimes a few points higher I’d it goes really well.

    i use that as my baseline. If I’m making a stronger beer I use more grain , some dextrose or make a smaller batch.


    Def keep it simple. I have done 30 AG batches and my 5 least favorites are probably the ones that 4 or 5 grain types in the Bill.
     
  7. axematt

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    21/7/18
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    5
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Adelaide
    Posted 25/1/20
    Thanks mongey.

    Really appreciate any tips on this and that certainly helps. I'm looking for my first brew to be a IPA style or just a simple pale ale with a nice bit of hopping. I pretty much understand the hop side of things...sort of. So it's the grains I need to learn more about, but if you have a great simple starter recipe for me to kick things off that would be awesome. I understand that this a general brewing discussion and not recipes so maybe I'll find one there.

    Cheers
     
  8. mongey

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    24/6/14
    Messages:
    752
    Likes Received:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Thirroul
    Posted 25/1/20
    I don’t brew allot of apa or ipa but last ipa I did to clean out a stash of hops in the fridge was just

    85 % pale
    12 % Vienna
    3% flaked oats.


    and it came out good.
     
    MaggieO likes this.
  9. 41pintsofbeer

    AHB Sponsor AHB Sponsor

    Joined:
    25/1/20
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    1
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Business Owner
    Location:
    Sydney, NSW
    Home Page:
    Posted 28/1/20
    Hey,

    I generally convert the recipe into percentages and just do those conversions for the new grain bill as a quick solution.

    If you have the time to put into a beer software that will take the hassle out of your life.

    Shout if we can help.
     
  10. golfandbrew

    Active Member

    Joined:
    26/4/17
    Messages:
    40
    Likes Received:
    5
    Posted 28/1/20
    If you're looking for a good resource to learn about all grain brewing I would recommend buying How to Brew by John Palmer. If you just want the basics for now and want to put your money towards ingredients the first edition is free online at www.howtobrew.com
     
  11. MaggieO

    New Member

    Joined:
    28/1/20
    Messages:
    2
    Likes Received:
    2
    Posted 29/1/20
    95% two row, 5% crystal 60.

    25 ibu of Cascade or the like, one addition 60 minutes before end of boil.

    Simple and makes a good, basic pale ale.

    MaggieO
     
  12. axematt

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    21/7/18
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    5
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Adelaide
    Posted 29/1/20
    Thanks MaggieO. That's the sort of thing I'm looking for, to start with anyway. I'll Give that a shot.

    Good one mongey! Will try a brew with that in mind as well.

    Thanks to everybody for the tips, Sure is better than flying blind.
     
  13. mongey

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    24/6/14
    Messages:
    752
    Likes Received:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Thirroul
    Posted 29/1/20
    just have a bash. As long as your basics are solid you'll make decent beer . first few batches will be about getting your water levels right .well it was for me .I made 17l when I was trying to make 23 a few times

    for example on ,my simple 1 pot BIAB rig, I do full volume mash no sparge,

    to make 23ish L wort

    start with 37.5 L to mash
    lose 2.5 L to the grain after the mash
    start boil with 35 L
    after hour boil usually have 27.5 L , sometimes a touch over
    lose 4 L to trub after boil
    I'm left with 22.5 to 23 L in the cube ,

    took me about 5 brews to really dial it in and its pretty much spot on every time
     
  14. yankinoz

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    15/2/12
    Messages:
    563
    Likes Received:
    171
    Gender:
    Male
    Home Page:
    Posted 30/1/20
    FYI: When APA recipes call for "two-row" and specify nothing further, they probably refer to what is given that name in the US, an ale malt with a less forward flavour than the English ale malts. Besides Briess and other US maltsters, Gladfield sells a similar "American ale malt." Almost all the malts available down under are from two-row barley.

    Personally, I prefer for the purpose Golden Promise.

    Five percent crystal is standard and works. I like about 60 in cooler weather, but Carahell in the summer.
     
  15. JDW81

    I make wort, the yeast make it beer.

    Joined:
    19/1/11
    Messages:
    2,185
    Likes Received:
    820
    Posted 31/1/20
    Not entirely true. There are both US and UK (and european) 2 row malts with different flavour profiles.

    2 row barley is more common than 6 row barley (which is only grown in the US), with 2 row the main type of malting barley used in europe. Pilsner malt, ale malt, golden promise, crystal, carapils, chocolate malt, vienna, Munich, biscuit, victory and roast barley (to name a few) are all from 2 row barley.

    It refers to the orientation of kernels on the stalk. When you look down the stalk of a 2 row cultivar there are (funnily enough) 2 rows of kernels, which lie on opposite sides of the stalk. With 6 row barley they are arranged more like a star around the stalk (with 6 kernels) - see image below.

    [​IMG]

    As for the difference between the 2: 2 row generally has more carbohydrate which results in more fermentables and more "malt flavour", while 6 row has more enzymes and protein per kernel. It was more commonly used in the US for brewing in the early days, which makes sense, as the US brewing industry typically had higher use of adjuncts (corn etc), so malt with more enzymes (i.e. 6 row) was better able to convert those adjuncts with low diastatic power. Probably less of an issue these days, as most modern 2 row malts have been developed to have high enzyme content (and hence diastatic power) and are more readily able to convert carbohydrates in adjuncts to CO2 and ETHOH.

    I've never had beer made from 6 row, but I've read it doesn't give as clean a flavour and lack the malt backbone of the same beer made from 2 row.

    JD
     
    Last edited: 31/1/20
    MHB likes this.
  16. MHB

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    30/9/05
    Messages:
    5,577
    Likes Received:
    2,994
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Newcastle
    Posted 31/1/20
    6-Row grows a lot better on some parts of the North American plains than does 2-Row
    It gets a bit circular, but the use of 6-row with its higher protein content requires dilution with low protein adjunct, so they breed higher enzyme malt and use more adjunct... Along with a higher protein content, and a lower carbohydrate content, husk matter is a larger fraction and the individual corns tend to be smaller so you tend to get lower %Yield.
    6-Row is really only used in big (and I mean really freaking ginormous) North American post prohibition mass market lagers (complete crap beers).
    It always amuses that 6-row is originally from Manchuria in northern China. As far as I know no one is importing 6-row into Australia (or anywhere else much really) and given a choice no one would pick it over 2-Row, well no one other than an accountant.
    Have only used American Pale Ale a couple of times (never again thanks), believe me what we use in Australia (say JW and BB) are way ahead, as above GP is a step up again, you could choose GP for the same sort of money as US malt and in my opinion be way better off.
    Mark
     
  17. philrob

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    16/2/18
    Messages:
    102
    Likes Received:
    54
    Location:
    Queenstown
    Posted 31/1/20
    Agree with MHB.

    My go to for Pale Ale (either UK or USA) is:

    95% Pale Malt (Golden Promise, Maris Otter etc)
    4% Heritage Crystal
    1% Chocolate Wheat (I like a bit of colour in my beers)
    Hops as you like it

    60 seconds pure oxygen injection
    Pitch appropriate yeast (I do equivalent of 2 smakpaks min for 25 litres)
    Control temperature at the lower end of the range for the first couple of days, then allow to rise by 1 or 2ºC.
    Bottle after 2 weeks max, although ferment is basically done in about 4 days.

    Simple. Comes out well for me.
     
Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page

Group Builder