Got A Cidery Taste- D'oh!

[Econwatson]

Hi all!
I'm in the process of fermenting a Coopers Draught Kit. I added BE1 and pitched US-05 yeast following suggestions from the forum. Thanks!

Anyway, she's been in the fermenter for 5 days now, so I thought I would take a gravity reading. OG was 1.040 and FG is 1.012 so I am pleased with that.

However what I'm not sure about is the taste. I'm still getting used to determining a beer's taste when it's flat, but I am pretty sure I am getting a cidery taste in my brew. My fermentation started out too hot I think, was probably close to 24 inside the FV initially. For the last 3 days I've had a wet towel around the FV and it's brought down the temperature to about 18 which is great. I'm just worried I did it too late!

Is there anything I can do to try and scrub the cidery taste out? Will more time in primary help get rid of the taste. I wish I could send you all taste samples via the forum, what a wonderful world that would be!

I'd be really grateful if you could help me out!
James

 

[pcmfisher]

No beer is going to taste good after only 5 days in the fermenter.

Give it another 10 days, but even then, the taste from the fermenter is barely a vague indication of what the final product will turn out like.

Having said that, Coopers Draught and BE1 will never taste much like beer to me.

 

[crd0902]

As said I wouldn't be worrying about the taste too much just yet. Give it another week to finish/settle then see how it is. Chris

 

[GalBrew]

When I was doing Kit beers, I found the 'Brew Enhancers' were the tool of the devil, especially BE2. You would be better off (especially for a coopers draught kit) dumping dry malt extract only into your beer up to your desired OG. I found that the brew enhancers only enhance your brew when compared to adding 1kg of white table sugar. LDME is definitely the way to go. That being said kit beers always taste like a kit beer, also I would be bumping your OG up a bit to at least around 1.045 unless you want to brew a mis-strength beer from 1.040 to 1.012 you will only end up with a 3.7% ABV beer.

 

[Nick JD]

By the time you've bought all your malt extracts and maybe some hops and good yeast, your kits and bits brew costs $30 plus. And you still had to boil stuff, it's only another ten bucks for a Fresh Wort Kit.

And it'll not taste of acetaldehyde (one of the key ingredients in TWANG).

 

[Diesel80]

As has been said here,
go all malt for the fermentables for an easy improvment.

Also, i would consider filling up the fermenter less, say to 20L rather than 23L.
Will make the beer more beery.
Doing this will also increase the gravity as suggested above, beer won't come out as thin. US-05 will handle the extra gravity no worries.

Extra malt should balance with the increase in hop bitterness from less dilution. All up should be 'better'.

But Nicks suggestion above is they way I would go if i did not have time to brew my own AG beer. Provided you don't infect it, it will turn out awesome.
It will taste $60 more expensive for an extra $10 invested (using Nicks numbers), thats good economy!

Cheers,
D80

 

[GalBrew]

As has been said here,
go all malt for the fermentables for an easy improvment.

Also, i would consider filling up the fermenter less, say to 20L rather than 23L.
Will make the beer more beery.
Doing this will also increase the gravity as suggested above, beer won't come out as thin. US-05 will handle the extra gravity no worries.

Extra malt should balance with the increase in hop bitterness from less dilution. All up should be 'better'.

But Nicks suggestion above is they way I would go if i did not have time to brew my own AG beer. Provided you don't infect it, it will turn out awesome.
It will taste $60 more expensive for an extra $10 invested (using Nicks numbers), thats good economy!

Cheers,
D80

Quite right about maintaining the balance between malt and bitterness. If you are going to keep using kits, perhaps it is better to either do a 20L batch or add only 1kg of LDME then make up the rest of your gravity points with dextrose which will only increase ABV without adding flavour or body.

 

[carniebrew]

Hi all!
I'm in the process of fermenting a Coopers Draught Kit. I added BE1 and pitched US-05 yeast following suggestions from the forum. Thanks!

Anyway, she's been in the fermenter for 5 days now, so I thought I would take a gravity reading. OG was 1.040 and FG is 1.012 so I am pleased with that.

However what I'm not sure about is the taste. I'm still getting used to determining a beer's taste when it's flat, but I am pretty sure I am getting a cidery taste in my brew. My fermentation started out too hot I think, was probably close to 24 inside the FV initially. For the last 3 days I've had a wet towel around the FV and it's brought down the temperature to about 18 which is great. I'm just worried I did it too late!

Is there anything I can do to try and scrub the cidery taste out? Will more time in primary help get rid of the taste. I wish I could send you all taste samples via the forum, what a wonderful world that would be!

I'd be really grateful if you could help me out!
James

James, I brewed that exact same kit a little while back with a buddy new to home brew and keen on doing an Irish Ale. We kept it simple and did the Irish Ale recipe from the Coopers website, although instead of BE1 we added 700gm of dex and 500gm of maltodextrin, as well as 300 grams of golden syrup into 21.5 litres of water in the fermenter (no boiling). It tasted ordinary during gravity tests (most beers do), but within two weeks of bottling (using carb drops) it was a damn good beer. We only had it in the primary for 8 days, then straight to bottles. Oh, and we just used the kit yeast, pitched at around 23 degrees, and it was fermented in my cupboard under the stairs 'coz I didn't have a brewfridge at that stage, so fermented about 21 degrees. If I was to change anything in hindsight I would have used S-04 dry yeast in place of the kit, it's supposed to be more suitable to english/irish ales.

It's still a bit "basic" for me, but very drinkable, and the buddy I brewed it with loved it so much he's already planning our next collaboration, a partial boil extract/specialty grain American Amber Ale.

It'll be fine.....don't worry, relax and have a home brew!

 

[carniebrew]

By the time you've bought all your malt extracts and maybe some hops and good yeast, your kits and bits brew costs $30 plus. And you still had to boil stuff, it's only another ten bucks for a Fresh Wort Kit.

And it'll not taste of acetaldehyde (one of the key ingredients in TWANG).

Coopers Draught kit with BE1 and US-05 yeast comes to about $21. I think that's about half the cost of an FWK, and that's only if you can pick it up...delivery costs on an FWK would be significant at a guess given the size/weight. Might be half as good, but that's up to the drinker!

And if you make sure everything is in date and you brew it right, you'll never suffer any kind of "twang".

 

[Diesel80]

And if you make sure everything is in date and you brew it right, you'll never suffer any kind of "twang".

/ducks for cover....

h34r:

Cheers,
D80

 

[Damien13]

/ducks for cover....

h34r:

Cheers,
D80

HAHAHHA yeah... I am hiding behind you Diesel... sweet ninja face by the way!

 

[dammag]

Coopers Draught kit with BE1 and US-05 yeast comes to about $21. I think that's about half the cost of an FWK, and that's only if you can pick it up...delivery costs on an FWK would be significant at a guess given the size/weight. Might be half as good, but that's up to the drinker!

And if you make sure everything is in date and you brew it right, you'll never suffer any kind of "twang".

I'll second that carniebrew. Nothing wrong with kit and extract brewing if you do it right as you say. I do use all malt though generally and add some specialty grains. And some hops. And good yeast. And a good sanitiser. And a brew fridge.

 

[carniebrew]

I'll second that carniebrew. Nothing wrong with kit and extract brewing if you do it right as you say. I do use all malt though generally and add some specialty grains. And some hops. And good yeast. And a good sanitiser. And a brew fridge.

So we're the two eh?

Agreed on the malt, grains & hops, if you look at my extract recipes in the db there's not an adjunct to be found. Thanks to G&G's 20% off sale last week my armory now consists of 15kg Briess light and wheat LME growlers, and a 5kg amber DME bag. Adjuncts do have their place, especially in no boil kit brewing.

Don't get me wrong, absolute respect and admiration for AG brewers, their passion and dedication is unquestionable. The extra equipment alone needed for milling grain, full boil heating and subsequent cooling, mash ratio's and the like shows you can't help but respect their ability to produce great beer. It's a shame extract brewing is viewed by many as a poor cousin, but it'll likely always be the way.

 

[Econwatson]

Thanks guys! I did as advised and had a drink from my first batch which I carbonated, restored my faith in my brewing ability!

I really want to try an AG brew once I have a few kits and extracts under my belt. Truth be told I'd love to start my own little brewery one day. My family are barley farmers in Scotland so I would have no shortage of grain!

 

[pk.sax]

My second brew, can o coopers + can of wheat extract + can of sugar + US05 cost me enough to ditch the goop and get a square of voile and a $19 pot. Improvement - massive. Effort, bleh, loved it. I've tasted that second kit brew a few times over the years, a bit of that twang is still there. Quite 'drinkable', nothing to write home about. In comparison, not a stubbie of my first AG 11L batch lasted beyond the month! Difference - massive.

 

[carniebrew]

My second brew, can o coopers + can of wheat extract + can of sugar + US05 cost me enough to ditch the goop and get a square of voile and a $19 pot. Improvement - massive. Effort, bleh, loved it. I've tasted that second kit brew a few times over the years, a bit of that twang is still there. Quite 'drinkable', nothing to write home about. In comparison, not a stubbie of my first AG 11L batch lasted beyond the month! Difference - massive.

Yes, it reminds me I should be really clear that when i'm talking about extract brewing, i'm specifically referring to Palmer's "Extract & Specialty Grains" style of brewing, not kit & kilo. While you can make perfectly drinkable brews with pre-hopped kits, to make anything of high enough quality to compete with AG you need to do the steeping, (partial) boiling and hop additions yourself. And i'd suggest anywhere between 500 grams and 1kg of specialty grains blended with extract via a really solid brewing process, including sanitation, yeast selection & temperature control will make a brew that's very hard to differentiate from AG.

 

[Nick JD]

Yes, it reminds me I should be really clear that when i'm talking about extract brewing, i'm specifically referring to Palmer's "Extract & Specialty Grains" style of brewing, not kit & kilo. While you can make perfectly drinkable brews with pre-hopped kits, to make anything of high enough quality to compete with AG you need to do the steeping, (partial) boiling and hop additions yourself. And i'd suggest anywhere between 500 grams and 1kg of specialty grains blended with extract via a really solid brewing process, including sanitation, yeast selection & temperature control will make a brew that's very hard to differentiate from AG.

I stopped doing extract brews and started AG because by the time I'd bought hops, spec malts, good yeast and good malt extracts it was costing a small fortune per batch and still needing a boil after a grain steep.

Not really any less effort than AG, more expensive by almost double, and not quite (IMHO) as good - though still bloody tasty.

End of the day, my biggest issue with extract brewing was the horrid extracts themselves. It's like they are mashed at 70C. Makes for cloying beer - which is exactly how I can tell it's an extract beer.

I'm not saying AG is for everyone - but when someone starts a thread with a "my beer doesn't taste quite right" there's a bleedingly obvious solution: make it from stuff that beer is made from.

 

[wbosher]

I've only just started down the AG path, doing BIAB, I've only done three brews now. To be honest, is not really much harder or time consuming than extract. It takes a fair few hours, but most of that is just waiting around, and you can get on with whatever you need to do while you wait.

Not bagging extract brewing, or kit brewing for that matter, just saying it's not as hard as you may think.

 

[Blitzer]

I've only just started down the AG path, doing BIAB, I've only done three brews now. To be honest, is not really much harder or time consuming than extract. It takes a fair few hours, but most of that is just waiting around, and you can get on with whatever you need to do while you wait.

Not bagging extract brewing, or kit brewing for that matter, just saying it's not as hard as you may think.

Just gotta get through the initial cost (ignoring stove top cooking, if you can't brew indoors)

 

[glenwal]

ignoring stove top cooking, if you can't brew indoors

If your doing partial boils for extract, then stove top AG isn't really any different.

 

[wbosher]

Just gotta get through the initial cost (ignoring stove top cooking, if you can't brew indoors)

All I got was a 50L stock pot for around $50 (I think), and a three ring gas burner...done. Didn't cost much at all, and I do it in the garage.

 

[carniebrew]

I'm not saying AG is for everyone - but when someone starts a thread with a "my beer doesn't taste quite right" there's a bleedingly obvious solution: make it from stuff that beer is made from.

:unsure: Ummm, we all do realise that extract is simply mashed/steeped grain that has had most of its water content removed via vacuum/heating dehydration methods, right?

 

[carniebrew]

All I got was a 50L stock pot for around $50 (I think), and a three ring gas burner...done. Didn't cost much at all, and I do it in the garage.

Do you chill or use a no chill method?

 

[glenwal]

:unsure: Ummm, we all do realise that extract is simply mashed/steeped grain that has had most of its water content removed via vacuum/heating dehydration methods, right?

And a K+K tin is hopped wort that has had most of its water content removed right?

 

[stux]

And a K+K tin is hopped wort that has had most of its water content removed right?

And VB is simply beer that has had most of its flavour removed

 

[carniebrew]

I stopped doing extract brews and started AG because by the time I'd bought hops, spec malts, good yeast and good malt extracts it was costing a small fortune per batch and still needing a boil after a grain steep.

I had been wondering, so perhaps a good time for a comparison. As i mentioned, i've stocked up with 15kg growlers of LME which cost me $68 from G&G. So a full extract Dr Smurto's Golden Ale costs me:

LME: 1.5kg wheat, 1.5kg light = $13.60
250gm Crystal 120 = $1.45 ($2.90 for 500gm from DHBW, saved half for my upcoming American Amber Ale)
50gm Amarillo hops = $4.25
15gm Warrior hops (if you'd rather use warrior for bittering and save all the Amarillo for late addition) = $3
US-05 yeast = $3.65

All up we're talking around $26 for 21 litres ($1.24 per litre). Given the hops and yeast would be the same cost for AG, lets say $15 for the extract and grain components. Actually I think the AG recipe for DSGA uses 250gm Caramunich I, so that's probably a direct replacement for the Crystal, so let's just say $13.60 for extract and the rest is the same for both AG and Partial boil Extract?

Now i'm guessing at the AG price of DSGA, so please correct me if I get something wrong, but from the looks it uses spot on 4kg of Pilsner, Pale Munich and Munich I. G&G's 2-20kg price for Joe White grain is $3.90 per kg, right? Lets apply the same 20% discount I got on my extract last week. So 4kg of grain = $12.48. Adding the rest of the ingredient prices in, I come to $24.88 for 21 litres ($1.18 per litre). So there's 6 cents per litre difference between them. Not quite a "small fortune per batch" by my calcs?

I think you can save money on grain by buying in bulk, but of course we're not taking into account any equipment needed for milling, mashing, full boil heating, sparging and cooling....I have no idea of the costs, if any, involved in that so any AG brewers not bored shitless yet please feel free to chip in!

 

[carniebrew]

And VB is simply beer that has had most of its flavour removed

And is an AG brew! :icon_vomit:

 

[glenwal]

I think you can save money on grain by buying in bulk, but of course we're not taking into account any equipment needed for milling, mashing, full boil heating, sparging and cooling....I have no idea of the costs, if any, involved in that so any AG brewers not bored shitless yet please feel free to chip in!

Don't G&G doing an account thing where you can pre-pay and get the 20+KG rate? so its only $2.40/KG.

Cost for equipment, assuming you don't need a mill (See previous sentence) is $19 for a big W pot and $5 for a sheet of voile from spotlight.

 

[carniebrew]

Don't G&G doing an account thing where you can pre-pay and get the 20+KG rate? so its only $2.40/KG.

Cost for equipment, assuming you don't need a mill (See previous sentence) is $19 for a big W pot and $5 for a sheet of voile from spotlight.

Thanks Glen. Can you link me to the $19 Big W pot I keep hearing about? I went looking but haven't been able to find it. The biggest I see is 8.2 litres for $34.86.

What do you do for heating a huge pot like that, and then cooling it?

So at $2.40 I think we're talking $22 for 21 litres, compared to extract's $26.

 

[glenwal]

Thanks Glen. Can you link me to the $19 Big W pot I keep hearing about? I went looking but haven't been able to find it.

What do you do for cooling?

So at $2.40 I think we're talking $22 for 21 litres, compared to extract's $26.

Looks like they don't have it on their website.

For cooling you can stick the pot in a sink with cold water (some people use ice aswell, i never bothered when I used to do it) or you can no chill (which is what I do now) either in a cube, or by covering the pot with glad wrap and leaving overnight.