Gose & Salt

[thumbsucker]

I am about to brew a Gose, however I am uncertain about the salt. I have some Himalayan Pink Rock Salt. My batch size is 40 litres. I am kettle lacto souring. For a twist I am using 65gm dried golden lemons sold in Arabic grocers in addition to the 45g of coriander.
A quick search recommendations for salt range from 10g to 80gm for a 40 litre batch (10.5 gallons). Thats no small difference. I am thinking 45g thats about 1.25gm per litre and middle of the recommendations.
I love salt in my food and I probably am far more tolerant of salt then most. So I weary of using my salt buds as a guide.
Has anyone got any experience in regards to this question?

 

[pnorkle]

Don't know much about Gose - but I found this..https://www.thrillist.com/drink/nation/craft-beer-is-dead-gose-ruined-craft-beer and I found it slightly amusing.

 

[earle]

I haven't brewed a gose but I have tasted a number of commercial examples and also quite a few from homebrewers. I would err on the side of underdoing the salt, once you go over a certain threshold the beer ends up tasting like gatoraid. The best examples I've had are subtle in the salt department.

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

I'm the opposite end of the salt tolerance spectrum (my family are always complaining about the fact that I don't put salt in my cooking except for the water for pasta and potatoes).

The technique I decided to use is to add 1.5g/l initially, wait till the beer is finished then add more if I need to. Salt is easy to add but a ******* to get out.

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

Don't know much about Gose - but I found this..https://www.thrillist.com/drink/nation/craft-beer-is-dead-gose-ruined-craft-beer and I found it slightly amusing.

I think Gose is one of those things that makes no sense at all, but then suddenly does.

Given my low salt tolerance (see above), I hated every Gose I'd tried until I found one I absolutely loved (Garage Project's "White Mischief").

A real lightbulb moment: oooooh, that's what this **** is actually about.

I would like to say this is all too common with Garage Project: my BIL will often present me with one of their beers*, I'll read the description and say "there's a 90% chance I'll hate that". They mostly turn out to be bloody wonderful. There is not another brewery on earth that has made me eat my words with such monotonous regularity.

* He has very different taste in beer, IMO he's the type example of Lupulin Threshold Shift whereas I *@%#ing hate American hops.

 

[thumbsucker]

Out of interest I added 2g of salt to 1 litre of water. To get an idea. It was mildly saline, almost refreshing like an ocean breeze OR it tastes like gatoraid, however I would not be able to drink a whole bottle worth of it. I think that maybe starting at the 0.5g per litre maybe be better starting point.

I made the Gose wort today, its cooling now, I took a sample of the wort and sprinkled a good amount of salt, yummy, salty malty crackers.

I enjoy sour beers, especially lacto sours, Gose is a beer that you must try at least once. I have only had one commercial example and it was good. As for the CRAFT BEER IS DEAD. GOSE KILLED IT I think that is just hyperbole, click bate. Multinationals cobbling up craft breweries that has killed craft beer and the never ending litany of ever hoppier Pale Ales, please enough with those bloody Pale Ales.

Just for reference:

http://homebrewacademy.com/gose-homebrew-recipe/ suggests 40g of salt to 18.93 litres of wort OR 2.11g of salt per litre

http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Gose suggests 14.17g of salt to 30.28 litres of wort OR 0.47g of salt per litre

https://beerandbrewing.com/koriander-und-salz-gotterhalts-gose-recipe/ suggests 14g of salt for 19 litres of wort OR 0.74g of salt per litre

These two videos are interesting in that Tilo says that non-German interpretations of Gose are to salty, to sour, to much everything.

 

[indica86]

I used 28g in a 23 litre batch and both times was subtle and really ******* good.

 

[Droopy Brew]

I brewed a 40L batch and used 4 teaspoons total. I found it was a good match, the salt was there, just enough to offset the light sourness (pH3.7). I would suggest a sourer beer would benefit from a bit more salt.
I think a good Gose balances the sourness with the salt with the spice (I used cinnamon). You dont want one to dominate the other.

 

[El Jefe]

I agree with Droopy Brew.

For mine, it really depends on the amount of coriander and the particular sour strain. You can balance it out further with sweet additions, Guava being my favourite. If you tip the balance one way, the saltiness fades into the background and compliments the sour. The other way, it can taste like a brilliant fresh Mexican margarita. Both can be fantastic.

I just finished a keg of base Gose that I absolutely devoured. It was so sour that one else would touch it. They never made it past the first sip. A perfect beer, really! It was like an alcoholic Atomic Warhead. I loved it so much that I am brewing it again this week.

25L batch kettle soured with GB110 for 4 days @ 35C. I had only intended to do two days, but I had to go away for an emergency, hence the massive sour hit.

14g Sea Salt chunks, 28g cracked Coriander seeds in the boil.

Fermented further with MJ M20 in the fermenter.

It knocked the proverbial socks off everyone else with the sourness, so this time I'll taste test as I go, just so I can share the odd one with others (plus, apparently my beard smelt sour for three days!?!). The sour certainly dominated the salt, but I liked it like that.

Even though the pre-boil samples I tasted were FAR too salty, once the lacto set in, the saltiness faded to support the mix beautifully. It could conceivably have used more salt, but one change at a time. I believe that less sour will mean more salt on the tongue and vice versa. As Droopy said: the more sour, the more salt.

A previous recipe (wheat beer kit) using WLP655 (soured in the fermenter along with the kit yeast) using 25g of the same Sea Salt chunks and 30g of cracked coriander seeds in a hop cage ended up being nice but on the salty and coriandery (floral and lemon-ey) side.

That exact same recipe with GB110 was a great balance, as it seems to me to be a far more severe (hence, better) sour strain.

I look forward to hearing what you decide and how it turns out, thumbsucker.

The more Gose, the merrier!

 

[thumbsucker]

Just an update:

I have been souring the wort for the last 4 days with IBS support, today I felt it was about right, tart but not bracing sour, however my tolerance for acid is greater then most. I transferred to the boil kettled and boiled for 75 minutes. I added 45g of salt 45g of Coriander and 60g of Dried Lemons in the last 15 minutes in a 40 liter batch. Its now sitting in the fermenter.

I am aiming for subtle balance between the components. For my palate I get the lacto, the coriander and the Dried Lemons, and the salt is more akin to a minerality a soft saline finish without the sharp burn edge that raw salt has on the palate. My housemate picked up the spices but did not taste salt or acid until prompted by "do you taste salt?" reply "ahhh yes just a little -yes" but he is not a foody or a drinker. I will give a sample to my brewing friend and get his feedback.

I ended up using Wyeast 3068, I will ferment low and slow aiming to get a clean neutral profile with that distinct German yeast notes.

El Jefe agreed the more people brewing Gose the better the more sours the better.

 

[mabrungard]

Gose is an interesting style when brewed properly. Sodium chloride is added to sweeten this lightly soured beer to provide balance. The salt is not added to make the beer 'salty'.

The typical taster will detect sodium in water when present at about 250 ppm. I find that boosting the sodium content with table salt such that the concentration is about 250 ppm is about right for Gose. That avoids a overt saltiness in the beer while adding the sweetness that the style demands.

 

[thumbsucker]

Martin - thanks for that - the notion of salt contributing sweetness is interesting. So 250ppm would be 0.25g of salt per litre of wort. Or a mere 10g per 40litres/10.5gallon batch.

These numbers are far below what online recipes give as the recommend dosage.

http://homebrewacademy.com/gose-homebrew-recipe/ suggests 40g of salt to 18.93 litres of wort OR 2.11g of salt per litre
http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Gose suggests 14.17g of salt to 30.28 litres of wort OR 0.47g of salt per litre
https://beerandbrewing.com/koriander-und-salz-gotterhalts-gose-recipe/ suggests 14g of salt for 19 litres of wort OR 0.74g of salt per litre

Next time I brew a Gose I will pare back the salt to 10g per 40litres and then compare and contrast.

 

[Dan2]

The typical taster will detect sodium in water when present at about 250 ppm. I find that boosting the sodium content with table salt such that the concentration is about 250 ppm is about right for Gose. That avoids a overt saltiness in the beer while adding the sweetness that the style demands.

Are you recommending 250 ppm sodium from a table salt addition, or 250 ppm table salt total?

 

[manticle]

Martin - thanks for that - the notion of salt contributing sweetness is interesting. So 250ppm would be 0.25g of salt per litre of wort. Or a mere 10g per 40litres/10.5gallon batch.

These numbers are far below what online recipes give as the recommend dosage.

http://homebrewacademy.com/gose-homebrew-recipe/ suggests 40g of salt to 18.93 litres of wort OR 2.11g of salt per litre
http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Gose suggests 14.17g of salt to 30.28 litres of wort OR 0.47g of salt per litre
https://beerandbrewing.com/koriander-und-salz-gotterhalts-gose-recipe/ suggests 14g of salt for 19 litres of wort OR 0.74g of salt per litre

Next time I brew a Gose I will pare back the salt to 10g per 40litres and then compare and contrast.

Salt when used in low amounts can enhance the perception of natural sweetness. Try sprinkling a very small amount of good salt on a ripe blood or navel orange, leave 10 mins, then eat.

 

[thumbsucker]

Since sea salt or any fancy salt is at least 95% sodium chloride it would make little difference I think

Are you recommending 250 ppm sodium from a table salt addition, or 250 ppm table salt total?

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

Since sea salt or any fancy salt is at least 95% sodium chloride it would make little difference I think

He's asking whether Martin is referring to 250 mg/l as Na or 250 mg/l as NaCl, they are very different levels.

Salt is approximately 40% sodium (the other 60% is chloride). Na AW is approx 23. Cl AW is approx 35.5, so 23 / 58.5 (39%) of the NaCl is the Na. BTW this is why chemists don't like using ppm or mg/l: if he'd stated that the threshold was approximately 10 mM we'd be in no doubt about what he meant.


I believe Martin is talking 250 mg/l as Na but I can't be sure, thresholds are highly idiosyncratic: some individuals are as low as 30 mg/l and some as high as 600 mg/l (both as Na). It also depends whether you are talking detection threshold or recognition threshold, there can be an almost tenfold difference between them.

 

[mabrungard]

I believe Martin is talking 250 mg/l as Na but I can't be sure, thresholds are highly idiosyncratic: some individuals are as low as 30 mg/l and some as high as 600 mg/l (both as Na). It also depends whether you are talking detection threshold or recognition threshold, there can be an almost tenfold difference between them.

That is correct. My recommendation is for 250 ppm sodium. Most tasters wouldn't perceive much improvement if they dose table salt (NaCl) at 250 ppm (mg/L).

 

[Dan2]

That is correct. My recommendation is for 250 ppm sodium. Most tasters wouldn't perceive much improvement if they dose table salt (NaCl) at 250 ppm (mg/L).

Thanks Martin
I was curious as I punched some figures into a water calc spreadsheet, and to get this level of sodium it warns that both sodium and chloride levels are harmful (well beyond the "high" threshold).
Given we aren't brewing bland adjunct lagers, I often take these guidelines with a ...... grain .... of ... pun ..
So low and high warnings are often ignored. It's just that "harmful" in red writing tends to make me wary.
I guess the high salt levels can only make the consumer more thirsty - and that's a good thing right?!

 

[thumbsucker]

So for the chemistry/maths challenged amongst us what does 250 ppm sodium mean in terms of how many grams of something Himalayan Rock Salt per litre of wort?

I am no good at maths so this is probably way wrong - If table salt is 40% sodium and 60% chloride then does this mean that it would be ABOUT 25g per 40litres/10.5gallon batch to achieve 250ppm of sodium.

I guess the high salt levels can only make the consumer more thirsty - and that's a good thing right?!

There was an interesting study published and reported on in the NY Times, based on work the Russians did with salt and their cosmonauts. It turns out that salt does not make us drink more fluids.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/08/health/salt-health-effects.html

 

[Garfield]

I start with 1g per L and adjust from there. I love the harmony of flavor when the salt, sour, spice and hops all balance out nicely