Goodbye Tony

[manticle]

There are occasions when I agree with you Black Devil dog and that last paragraph particularly is one such time.

 

[Droopy Brew]

Sorry I could'nt help but giggle a little at this. A lawyer? up against the highest payed lawyers owned by the biggest wealthiest most powerful heavy polluters? No chance.
Conspiracy theory? or reality?

Check out a Documentary called: Merchants of Doubt for some relevance. Scientists and scientific evidence has been little competition against them. Although after decades they did manage to prove that cigarettes are bad for you. So there is hope still.

To campaign and say its all crap while at the same time planning their new drilling areas for oil once the Ice caps melt away and clear the path. They new the science was real all along.
I think we are well past the mythology and hoax theories. The science needs to be taken seriously. (both ways!) or left and right wing/everybody loses.

Talking about the whole Global scale thing in general etc.
$0.02

Im not calling it a conspiracy theory and understand the power of the almighty $ - perhaps Bob Brown could give himself a reality check before coming up with such statements.

Lawyer or otherwise (and you will be hard pressed to sue without one) I dont believe that there is anybody that can make a reasonable case that the actual action of digging coal from the ground caused the floods. Sure there may be links to the burning of fossil fuels and weather patterns- the contribution made by man vs the natural cycles is still not clear. But really- do you think that you can pin a single weather event on the coal mining industry alone? In particular the Australian coal industry? No contribution from the industrialisation of the entire world over the past 130 years? No contribution from the actual consumers of the coal that burn it?

Believing that the coal mines in Australia alone caused or had significant hand in that weather event is as naive as those that say humans have no impact on the environment. Both extreme views IMO

 

[jlm]

I question the cost involved in building roads that I will never drive on.

Actually, I dont but its a similar mentality.

Infrastructure such as the NBN should be a higher priority than it is, as its deployment provides future growth (both planned and unplanned from ideas that havent been realised)
Plus, if it was done right in the first place its 'true' cost to the tax payer/budget is minimal due to the large majority of the funding coming from government backed bonds to raise the capital..not a single country is rolling out copper so why bother rolling out upgrades that continue to use it (you're already resigned to paying $x to roll out some arbitrary upgrade, why not spend $x + $y and do it right the first time instead of having to come back later and re-do it, but that will be on some other governments dime so who cares right)

Hey, all these hypotheticals about how rolling out fibre to domestic premises is going to change the way we work and make our nation super competitive in your prediction of the future are fantastic.

In my hypothetical theory the majority of this nation's workforce, and most first world countries for that matter, for the next 50 years though my crystal ball will wake up and go to work elsewhere and not need the bandwidth that FTP provides at their home.

There will still be ducts in the ground that can be re-used, and new trenches can be dug as they are required in both scenarios.

I'd be really interested to know how things will get more expensive, cost of labour aside, in the future to provide FTP where is actually required. While I'm a simple cable monkey, I'd be intrigued to know why as the technology develops it becomes less efficient?

 

[manticle]

I don't think he really said 'they caused the floods'. I believe that to be hyperbole for the sake of headlines.
I believe he drew on a conclusion based on scientific evidence that coal based power contributes to climate change and climate change contributes to the preavalence of occurrences like floods.
Based on that, he then suggested part of the now non existent mining tax be used in areas like flood relief. It was a statement by a green, rather than a Greens policy - we can go a long way to making many politicians look like strait-jacketable ECT candidates if we take journalistic interpretations of public statements and suggest they are party policy.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

RE the NBN

Ok.

Labor saw that the existing copper network just cannot handle the speeds of a modern internet

Technically copper will never, ever, ever compete with fibre.

The bandwidth of a single optical fibre has not yet been reached. The only thing limiting the bandwidth of fibre is the equipment at either end

Most of the copper in the ground is old, serviceable, but old and getting older

It costs less for fibre per Km than copper ( and you get a **** load more bandwidth )

The install costs are about the same.

The big problem with the NBN is Telstra and their ownership of the existing copper network. They have they fixed line users. And that is where the $$ are

Business broadband is a cut throat race to the bottom

The LNP dont like the original NBN model. It was about providing a flat platform for all users. Bit like Auspost

NBN is seen as competition


* Note I work for an ISP ( only for the last 12months ) but before that I worked in the general comms industry in various tech/install/support roles. I dont have an allegiance. I look at the industry from a tech side, not a marketing or commercial side

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

 

[Dave70]

The west laughed at Thailand and the way they churned through PM's. Immature was the agreed label. I think we have surpased them.

A likable leader is not always the best leader. It is not a popularity contest FFS.

Actually, its exactly that.

pop·u·lar·i·ty

ˌpäpyəˈlerədē/

noun
noun: popularity

1. 
   
   
   
   the state or condition of being liked, admired, or supported by many people.
   
   
   
   

There was a proposition thrown about a while back to do away with jurys simply because the nature of protracted trials is to complex for the average person to grasp. And who doesn't roll their eyes and immediately start rehearsing excuses when that envelope lands in the mail. Much like polling day.
I propose we do away with electorates and instead choose governments via some system akin to the high court where the relevant parties have all their policys and schemes scrutinized by a board of highly qualified professionals and representatives - perhaps the public could vote these reps in - and let them decide whos got the chops to run the country.

Alternatively, we make political studies compulsory as maths and English rather than an 'elective'. Makes sense to me. Unless you like voting how your daddy voted. And his daddy before him.

A puppet is only as good as the hand in its arse.

At least if its Rob Smigels hand, its a funny puppet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcRHUOTNobE

 

[jlm]

RE the NBN

Ok.

Labor saw that the existing copper network just cannot handle the speeds of a modern internet

Technically copper will never, ever, ever compete with fibre.

The bandwidth of a single optical fibre has not yet been reached. The only thing limiting the bandwidth of fibre is the equipment at either end

Most of the copper in the ground is old, serviceable, but old and getting older

It costs less for fibre per Km than copper ( and you get a **** load more bandwidth )

The install costs are about the same.

The big problem with the NBN is Telstra and their ownership of the existing copper network. They have they fixed line users. And that is where the $$ are

Business broadband is a cut throat race to the bottom

The LNP dont like the original NBN model. It was about providing a flat platform for all users. Bit like Auspost

NBN is seen as competition


* Note I work for an ISP ( only for the last 12months ) but before that I worked in the general comms industry in various tech/install/support roles. I dont have an allegiance. I look at the industry from a tech side, not a marketing or commercial side

I don't disagree with any of the above, but one option completely missed there is the option of fixed wireless (which is the barrow I was trying to push last night a bit unsuccessfully) . As I stated previously, that's what I'm on now. Good enough speeds for the home at a cheap as chips rate compared to FTP. I completely am comfortable with business that require the speeds that fibre brings getting FTP, but domestically, you don't and more than likely won't need that speed.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Fixed wireless is good for out lying residence in rural communities. It is working really well up here on the north coast where it is just not feasable to run fibre to every house

The problem NBN is facing is the backhaul. Whilst your connection speed might be great if the backhaul is chocked then your overall speed will be crap. Its already happening

And if you think that most users just want 25Mb connections then you are wrong. You would not believe how many residential users can blow 1Tb of usage a month.

More and more user are using the like of Netflox, iView etc..etc and this eats bandwidth. Combine this with multiple users hanging off a single connection ( Mum & Dad each have a computer, each child has an iPad etc ) and that 25Mbps connection feels more like 5Mbps

 

[pist]

Again I ask... what policies are, as you put it "purist dribble"? What exactly is "whacked out" about them?

I suspect that by "whacked out purist dribble" you really mean - "things I don;t agree with".

Emissions taxing/trading to begin with. That is a stupid idea. It doesn't achieve anything, except drive business out of the country, which comes as a loss to the economy. Very few businesses left here producing, exporting, paying taxes which is bad for the economy especially considering the resources sector is now failing (this country has put all their eggs in one basket for far too long). Then there's the flow on effect to unemployment. There's a lot more people out of a job than the rubbish 6.1% they quote. They fail to mention they count being listed with an employment agency as being employed, even though you may not be receiving any work from them. Yes something needs to be done to tackle carbon emissions, but you can't just go and slap a ridiculous tax on and expect it to make a difference. Investment in research, development and installation of efficient clean power technologies whilst phasing out the old as it is brought online is the way to achieve it. Creates jobs, entices manufacturing back into the country, reduces emissions in the long run and everyone is happy.

 

[mje1980]

Nothing more boring than listening to people compare the 12 different TV shows that they're currently watching. Seriously, get outside ffs

 

[SBOB]

I don't disagree with any of the above, but one option completely missed there is the option of fixed wireless

which is fine for low density or low user-count areas, but its a shared medium.. the more users, the lower per-user bandwidth available..

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

which is fine for low density or low user-count areas, but its a shared medium.. the more users, the lower per-user bandwidth available..

It is, but you have to look at cost v users

At the extreme end is satellite connections. Farking expensive, lots of delay/lag , limited bandwidth. This is going to be the option for up to 150,000 users where it is just not feasable to get fibre or wireless to every household

 

[jlm]

More and more user are using the like of Netflox, iView etc..etc and this eats bandwidth. Combine this with multiple users hanging off a single connection ( Mum & Dad each have a computer, each child has an iPad etc ) and that 25Mbps connection feels more like 5Mbps

This sort of my point.......I don't see the need to roll out FTP just so this nightmarish scenario can be avoided. The money could be spent on things far, far more important. Remember the health care section of pages on the other Goodbye thread? I'd rather cash is shovelled into that rather than keeping relatively well off suburbanites happy with their download speed.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Yes, but NBN is not primarily funded by the government as such like health & education. It is a commercial model designed to provide dividends and returns

They are sort of spending money to make money.

The goverment has told NBNco that they will now need to get private capital funding


How are we paying for it?

Another big misconception about the NBN is how it will be paid for. So, in simple terms, here is an explanation of the public funding:
The $27.5bn Government component of the NBN is funded by debt, through the issuing ofAustralian Government Bonds. That is, the Federal Government offers our AAA-rated bonds to investors, at an interest rate of about 4% (depending on the term).
The NBN however, will provide a return of about 7%. This means that (once the network is operational), the NBN will begin repaying those bonds at a higher rate than what Government is paying on the debt. By 2034, the entire Government investment (including the interest) will have been repaid by the users of the network, leaving the Government owning a valuable asset (the NBN network) and no associated debt. Big users of the network (those who choose the high speed and high volume plans) will contribute more towards repayment of the debt, and actually subsidise those on smaller plans.
Taxpayers don’t really have anything to do with NBN funding. It is users of the network who will pay to build it, whether they are taxpayers or not.
This is completely different to the majority of Government spending, which doesn’t earn any return. To borrow (and modify) an analogy I read on an internet forum:
Think of the NBN as an investment property….
You are borrowing money to build the property at an interest rate of 4.9%pa. But the tenants will be paying you rent which is the equivalent of 7%pa. So once the house has been finished and the tenants have moved in, the mortgage won’t be costing you anything because you’re receiving more in rental income than you are paying in mortgage payments. Then, fourteen years after the house is finished, the tenants will have completely paid off the mortgage. You can then choose to sell the house for a very large amount of money, or keep it and continue to receive the rent as income.

 

[technobabble66]

Btw, a few of the latest estimates indicate the FTN-modified NBN will cost roughly the same and take about as long as the original FTP NBN, but will now deliver half the speed - all due to problems integrating the fibre network (to the node) with the exchanges and the copper link to the premises (a cousin is in the dept that is dealing with it, says all the cash saved on reducing the network is now being sunk into IT fixes for this problem. And it was originally predicted as a flaw in the FTN concept, fwiw). All for the sake of the LNP having something to slag off the ALP over.

And the idea with the NBN, as mentioned above, is to unlock unattained or unknown potentials - eg: many more people can run all sorts of businesses from home, business can access new concepts and channel them into those homes.
It's a bit like saying why construct phone lines when telegraphs do a perfectly good job, and people are only going to use phones to needlessly chat on them.

 

[SBOB]

Btw, a few of the latest estimates indicate the FTN-modified NBN will cost roughly the same and take about as long as the original FTP NBN, but will now deliver half the speed

1/2 the speed is a massive over-estimation

 

[mwd]

Trying to ditch the Treasurer big Joe watch out the Btards might just put up GST to gain a few more Billions in the frequent flyer fund.

 

[jlm]

Btw, a few of the latest estimates indicate the FTN-modified NBN will cost roughly the same and take about as long as the original FTP NBN, but will now deliver half the speed - all due to problems integrating the fibre network (to the node) with the exchanges and the copper link to the premises (a cousin is in the dept that is dealing with it, says all the cash saved on reducing the network is now being sunk into IT fixes for this problem. And it was originally predicted as a flaw in the FTN concept, fwiw). All for the sake of the LNP having something to slag off the ALP over.

And the idea with the NBN, as mentioned above, is to unlock unattained or unknown potentials - eg: many more people can run all sorts of businesses from home, business can access new concepts and channel them into those homes.
It's a bit like saying why construct phone lines when telegraphs do a perfectly good job, and people are only going to use phones to needlessly chat on them.

And the latest estimates also indicate that the original FTP model would have blown out to 78-84 billion according to NBN co (queue cries of Bill Morrow is a liberal party stooge.....Bring back Quigley) so either the govt cap would have to dramatically increase or NBN co would have to raise a significantly large amount of cash to complete that existing network (and they already have to find another 5-15 billion) to which would throw all the above figures significantly out of whack. I'm not arguing anywhere that business' don't need FTP, just its a waste trying to connect the majority of homes via FTP.

*And also, it will be interesting to see what the returns will actually be...........could be higher or lower, I'm not trying to say that their ******** but it is a complete unknown until the network is completely finished. We'll find out down here first I suppose. Thank you Julia for those delicious barrels of pork.

 

[Airgead]

Emissions taxing/trading to begin with. That is a stupid idea. It doesn't achieve anything, except drive business out of the country, which comes as a loss to the economy. Very few businesses left here producing, exporting, paying taxes which is bad for the economy especially considering the resources sector is now failing (this country has put all their eggs in one basket for far too long). Then there's the flow on effect to unemployment. There's a lot more people out of a job than the rubbish 6.1% they quote. They fail to mention they count being listed with an employment agency as being employed, even though you may not be receiving any work from them. Yes something needs to be done to tackle carbon emissions, but you can't just go and slap a ridiculous tax on and expect it to make a difference. Investment in research, development and installation of efficient clean power technologies whilst phasing out the old as it is brought online is the way to achieve it. Creates jobs, entices manufacturing back into the country, reduces emissions in the long run and everyone is happy.

Really? Except that while our (admittedly very lame) carbon tax was in effect it had a measurable impact on emissions which immediately evaporated when it was removed. https://ccep.crawford.anu.edu.au/publication/ccep-working-paper/4388/impact-carbon-price-australias-electricity-demand-supply-and

Trading schemes work. Economists agree. business folks agree. Scientists agree. Everyone agrees except liberal voters and news corp papers who would prefer that we did nothing. They are the market driven way to reduce emissions. They work. They really do. Dozens of pollutants are controlled and reduced world wide right now through trading schemes.

the arguments you put forward - jobs will go etc were all used when the trading scheme was set up to cover ozone depleting chemicals back in the 80s. Net result - non of that happened. Emissions of that stuff fell to the point where the ozone hole stopped growing and began to close up.

Relying on innovation to fix things is a very techno Utopian view and is completely unjustified especially when government support for such innovations also evaporated. That was what the tax was supposed to pay for. Who pays for the innovation? Fossil fuel companies? Hardly, especially when they get 5B a year in subsidies to keep things the way they are...

But anyway. Tony was a *******. Good riddance. Malcolm... is a lot less progressive than people think he is, especially with the ball and chain that is the nationals around his ankle (seriously.. the nats? who really gives a ****... i don;t know why the libs don't just run against them in the few seats they still hold and wipe them out). I'll be happy to wax lyrical about the finer points of greens policy over a beer or three (organic of course) at the pub.