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Getting More Maltiness In My Amber Ales

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cpsmusic

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Hi,

I've had several attempts at brewing an AG amber ale in the style of JSAA. I have (what I've been told is) the original recipe for JSAA. In the attempts I've made so far the only change I've made to the recipe is substituting some Victory malt for sugar (about 4% of the grain bill).

So far, the batches have been good (and generally well-received by those who have tasted them) however to me, they don't have the same up-front maltiness of JSAA. The difference is hard to describe however it's a bit like when you make cordial that is slightly weak - the malt flavour isn't as pronounced as it is in JSAA.

So far I've used a single temperature mash (68 degrees) and S04 yeast.

Assuming the recipe is right, how can I get more maltiness into the beer?

Cheers,

Chris
 

cpsmusic

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I've made the recipe twice - first time I used Simpson's Maris Otter, the second time I used JWM Traditional Ale. The first batch was the fourth time I'd done an AG (so I was still getting used to the process) however the second one was the ninth AG so I was pretty right with quantities and temps.
 

Spiesy

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add more malt





...


sorry, couldn't resist... perhaps post some more info on what your recipe and processes were...
 

manticle

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It depends a lot on what you mean by maltiness. Flavour, body, both? The following are just suggestions.

I would stick with the maris and make sure it's fresh. Go back to all victory malt rather than sugar (if I read that correctly).
Mash a bit lower for 10 minutes (say 63) then bump up to 68 for 40-50 minutes. Follow with a 72 rest for 10.
Add some Calcium Chloride to your mash
Try reducing 2 Litres of total runnings to about 500-600 mL and add back to the main boil.
Try a different yeast (a liquid UK like 1968 or 1469).
 

cpsmusic

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It depends a lot on what you mean by maltiness. Flavour, body, both? The following are just suggestions.

I would stick with the maris and make sure it's fresh. Go back to all victory malt rather than sugar (if I read that correctly).
Mash a bit lower for 10 minutes (say 63) then bump up to 68 for 40-50 minutes. Follow with a 72 rest for 10.
Add some Calcium Chloride to your mash
Try reducing 2 Litres of total runnings to about 500-600 mL and add back to the main boil.
Try a different yeast (a liquid UK like 1968 or 1469).
I think the difference is "strength of flavour" if that makes sense. The body seems Ok, and my OG/FGs are about right.

I'll try mashing at a lower temp as you suggest and see if that makes a difference.
 

manticle

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Only suggesting low for a short rest and back to high for the remainder - just to get a well attenuated beer with lots of body and dextrins. 72 rest will help with that as well. If you struggle to step mash though maybe look at hot water infusion to do 62/70 (20 mins, 40 mins).

I think a combo of all the things I suggested will help.
 

Thirsty Boy

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Sub out some base malt and sub in some more malty tasting malt. Just because its a pale ale doesn't mean you aren't allowed to use some munich.

Make the next one with 50% munich malt as the base and see if it isn't a shitload maltier.
 

Helles

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Sub out some base malt and sub in some more malty tasting malt. Just because its a pale ale doesn't mean you aren't allowed to use some munich.

Make the next one with 50% munich malt as the base and see if it isn't a shitload maltier.

F#@k it sub all your pale for Munich or Vienna :D
 

Thirsty Boy

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Why the hell not? i do it all the time. Vienna and Munich ARE base malts. Too much complicated advice about this sort of thing.... you want maltier beer, use more malty malt. Easy.
 

Nick JD

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Ditch the S04 and use US05.

Your maltiness is being eaten up by the yeast-derived esters. Both are quite subtle and on the nose.
 

Bizier

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I agree with TB on the malt flavour thing.

Screw going to a hectic mash schedule until you are more experienced. You should be able to get this locked down with simple grist changes. Multiple infusions, reductions, decoctions or whatever could all work great, but in my opinion are overkill.

I would get rid of the sugar, it is only going to make your beer less malty.

It is hard to give specific advice if you don't post your exact recipe.

My suggestions: Keep your mash at 68, use Munich or even a bit of melanoiden, perhaps switch a portion of your crystal to a darker one.

In any case, it is going to be a much better beer than the current JSAA.
 

Jay Cee

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Sub out some base malt and sub in some more malty tasting malt. Just because its a pale ale doesn't mean you aren't allowed to use some munich.

Make the next one with 50% munich malt as the base and see if it isn't a shitload maltier.
This is helpful. I was formulating a grain bill for an IPA today, and though that some Munich might malt the party up a bit. Too late now, but I only used about 250g. Next time I'll be considerably more heavy handed with it.
 

manticle

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. Too much complicated advice about this sort of thing.... you want maltier beer, use more malty malt. Easy.
Hence my first question being 'what base malt are you using?", followed by advice to use maris instead of JW, victory and drop the sugar.

The other, admittedly complicated sounding advice (none of it is actually complicated to do or understand) were purely suggestions that may help, particularly because I'm not sure of the current recipe , nor what else has been tried. A touch of CaCl2, a different yeast, a dextrinous rest and using maltier base malts and no sugar are all possible contributors.

Having said all that - upping the munich is much simpler and looking at the malt bill would be the first step to consider.

Just defending myself against the possibility of being considered complicated. I like sausages, beer and wearing yellow trousers.
 

MHB

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Thirsty is on the money, for mine an all Vienna amber can be the great, but maybe a half and half is a good place to start unless you want to seriously up the hops to. I like S-04, it is very neutral and drops like a rock when its finished, the yeast MS use is I believe very similar to Mauri 514 Australian Ale, widely scorned on AHB but praised in a lot of other countries where its sold as a premium imported yeast - go figure anyway it works well in this type of beer.

Mark
 

cpsmusic

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Thanks for all the advice.

I don't think I was clear enough with my original question - what really interests me is, assuming I have the right recipe, why aren't I getting the same level of maltiness? That is, what can I do wrt the brewing process that will increase the maltiness? I think I'll try a two-step mash and see if that makes a difference.
 

Jay Cee

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Youre asking why the recipe you are following, using home methods, isn't the same as the commercial example......... you need to consider that the process between a 30L batch and that of producing many megalitres is going to be considerably different. One of the experts such as Thirsty or Mark can probably clarify, but I was of the mind that for one thing, commercial breweries would go for a far greater conversion efficiency that is practical to you & me in our shed. That's probably just the beginning of what's different. ANother is ingredients that you many not have at your disposal. For example, some of the legendary English breweries get their base malt kilned to their exact specifications, and there's no way youre going to replicate their beers unless you get creative with other specialty malts, which they wouldnt in fact use for the real deal, but we as homebrewers can still achieve.

As with all aspects of homebrew, make recipe adjustments until you get it how you like it, based on your system. In most cases (well for me anyway) I find that if I go towards a recipe to make a commercial beer, and the recipe is from a reputable origin, then Im still a way off the commercial product. In most cases it's better, and I'll then fine-tune the recipe for my tastes based on experience.

Try your next batch with the info you have been given above, use some more 'malty malts'.

All the best with it.

jay
 

manticle

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Ditch the S04 and use US05.

Your maltiness is being eaten up by the yeast-derived esters.

Can you elaborate? I use plenty of UK style yeasts which push esters and get plenty of what I call 'maltiness'.
 

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