Get into O2 guys, if you're serious about nicer beer

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Adr_0

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Jack of all biers said:
Dr Smurto answered it in this post on the previous page.



EDIT - + 1 for the DO instrument testing and mutation observations on the yeast themselves would be the next step.
From everything I've seen, adding H2O2 and methylene blue will actually remove the blue colour. Over the hour or so I thought the blue in the 'saturated' solution was becoming less, but I couldn't be sure.

This morning the 'saturated' solution was as pale yellow as the ascorbic acid reduced solution. Other solutions were unchanged overnight. These other solutions had 0.001% H2O2 in them, vs the 4mL of 12% I had in 40mL of solution to make up the 'saturated' standard.

The studies I've seen use metal catalysts to speed up the reduction, while it still took 6-12hrs with no catalyst.

This doesn't exactly prove that there are not other oxidation products making the MB go blue. There is a 2H2O2 > 2H2O + O2 decomposition that will occur in water, which is significantly sped up in the presence of yeast - so I'm hoping this produced oxygen to show blue, rather than something else.

I'll have to get my hands on a DO meter from Tech Rentals next time...
 

Jack of all biers

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Mardoo said:
EDIT: FWIW, Further to MHB's post, this too is absolutely anecdotal. Equipment-wise I'm finally getting myself to the point I have a satisfactory amount of control to side-by-side ferments that will hopefully satisfy my process desires (Insert heavy SS breathing here). It's been working for me over the last year and I'm pretty damn happy with the results. I was about to upgrade my O2 setup, but was getting ferments that were too fast and too clean. (This was discussed in one of my other ramblings.) I ran across this technique (said to come from Coors via Colin Kaminsky) and thought I'd give it a go while I saved money for the new O2 setup. Over the last year I've tightened up yeast and ferment processes to the point that over the coming year I'll be able to eliminate most of the variables I can see and do true side-by-sides to test the vitality starter process against both air-based and pure O2 aeration.
If I could double like your post after reading your edit I would. Can't wait to read about it.

EDIT -
Adr_0, on 19 May 2017 - 8:16 PM, said:

This doesn't exactly prove that there are not other oxidation products making the MB go blue. There is a 2H2O2 > 2H2O + O2 decomposition that will occur in water, which is significantly sped up in the presence of yeast - so I'm hoping this produced oxygen to show blue, rather than something else.
I'll have to get my hands on a DO meter from Tech Rentals next time...

Does MB go blue for oxidised molecules/compounds though? Serious question as I don't know.
 

Phoney

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Christ almighty with the amount of time you guys have spent (looking back, since bloody February) faffing about researching chemistry and experimenting with this that and the other and so on so-forth with something that may or may not even work, you guys could have just bit the bullet and bought a C02 setup and moved on! I mean, now you want to get your hands on a DO meter? My head is spinning, and not because I've had 6+ beers.
 

Jack of all biers

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Lifes about the journey sometimes, not getting to the end quickly. CO2 set up already purchased though :p
 

technobabble66

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Jack of all biers said:
...
The tasting comparison will go on. Peteru, Techno, Adro, any further results from your experiments that differ from mine so far?
...
Sorry, afraid not.
I've done a few ales with M42 and WLP-530 using a combo of stirring to aerate on the yeast cake then adding some H2O2 ~30mins later to the equivalent of an additional 10ppm O2. The idea being the beasties wake up in the first 30mins, then are able to deal with the H2)2 when i add it.
It's basically not a useful test of the veracity of the H2O2.
I'm not set up to do side-by-sides, so i've assumed any of my findings will be of scant benefit.
Having said that, most of these fermentations have been completed within 2-3 days. This is remarkably fast for me. I'd assume that most of this results from the 2 strains of yeast used plus the large yeast cake population i'm pitching onto. Maybe it suggests the H2O2 is at least not doing any damage to the yeasts that noticeably impairs fermentation rate. These beers are generally not mature enough to show signs of oxidation or other flaws, though i reckon my Oaty Belgian ale from the first generation of the WLP-530 is one of my best beers. So i've definitely not seen any flaws in that after 8-12 weeks.
One other point is that with the M42 yeast cake, i've done 3 consecutive generations, after a previous 2 generations, all using the above stirring plus H2O2 method. All of these show no sign of strain deviation or mutation. Admittedly in a strain that has minimal contribution to the finished beer.
Again, not really anything you could describe as scientific results, but a loose indicator perhaps.

Otherwise, top work by Jack & Adr_0. Really impressive work!
 

Adr_0

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Jack of all biers said:
If I could double like your post after reading your edit I would. Can't wait to read about it.

EDIT -
Adr_0, on 19 May 2017 - 8:16 PM, said:

This doesn't exactly prove that there are not other oxidation products making the MB go blue. There is a 2H2O2 > 2H2O + O2 decomposition that will occur in water, which is significantly sped up in the presence of yeast - so I'm hoping this produced oxygen to show blue, rather than something else.
I'll have to get my hands on a DO meter from Tech Rentals next time...

Does MB go blue for oxidised molecules/compounds though? Serious question as I don't know.
It doesn't so much to blue for oxidation compounds, but available O or O2 floating around will bond with H on the leucomethylene blue (white/colourless form) and with the H removed and bonds rearranged it turns blue.

Similarly an acid - ascorbic acid in my case - can donate an H to the blue methylene blue, making it colourless leucomethylene.

It is entirely possible that a free O- will bond to MB more readily than forming O2 then bonding to the MB.

EDIT: rushed post before daughter's dancing and got things mixed up.

technobabble66 said:
it's a kind of swishing sound.

;)
I though it was more of a sucky squelchy sound?
 

Adr_0

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I'm really starting to see the batch where H2O2 was added to the wort start to lag behind the others. It is quite probable that without the yeast catalase I'm just getting vigorous, slutty O-'s floating around and oxidising wort - while the other tests, with yeast already in suspension and yeast catalase available, ensure at least a bit decomposes to O2. I know that this isn't particularly groundbreaking, but it's why I diluted the H2O2 (to help mixing) and why I had two tests where yeast was thoroughly mixed around already. It will be interesting to see if there's a difference.

Batch #2 with H2O2 in wort for 40min before contact with any yeast is the orange line:
Att-20thMay.png
 

good4whatAlesU

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Not sure if its been discussed already but there are numerous aquarium tablets (of varying chemistry) around that claim to oxygenate the water. Some peroxide based? Some potassium chlorate? I'm not up to speed with this chemistry. Perhaps it's possible the slower release tablets might work over several days rather than the straight up liquid hit?

Anyway obviously not safe to drop aquarium tablets in your wort (don't do it!), but if the chemistry (and safety) was sound, could be a market for that sort of thing in brewing.
 

Adr_0

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good4whatAlesU said:
Not sure if its been discussed already but there are numerous aquarium tablets (of varying chemistry) around that claim to oxygenate the water. Some peroxide based? Some potassium chlorate? I'm not up to speed with this chemistry. Perhaps it's possible the slower release tablets might work over several days rather than the straight up liquid hit?

Anyway obviously not safe to drop aquarium tablets in your wort (don't do it!), but if the chemistry (and safety) was sound, could be a market for that sort of thing in brewing.
The reason a few of us are testing the H2O2 thing is that it's less gear to have, less intrusive and cheaper than O2 cylinders/regulators - if it works. It's also better for the back than shaking.

I guess it's a similar thing with a tablet - great if it works. I'm not sure if chlorate (ClO4?) is a good thing to be adding anywhere near malt or yeast though. The oxygen is probably fine but the chlorine is not.
 

technobabble66

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Adr_0 said:
...
I though it was more of a sucky squelchy sound?
That's the sound of one hand fapping, not faffing.
[emoji15]

Edit: it now makes me wonder what you think has been happening every time someone has said "I just spent a few hours faffing around the house" ... [emoji51]
 

Adr_0

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Next lot of numbers. I feel like #1 is Kenny Wallace and the Control is Adam van Koeverden in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QFrcrjJ95I

Gravity-20thMay2.png
Att-20thMay2.png
 

MHB

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Adr-0
If the data you have collected so far means anything, it appears to show that no matter when you add peroxide, it does harm!
Be very interesting to see what happens as terminal gravity is approached.
Mark
 

Adr_0

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MHB said:
Adr-0
If the data you have collected so far means anything, it appears to show that no matter when you add peroxide, it does harm!
Be very interesting to see what happens as terminal gravity is approached.
Mark
Indeed. I thought #3 had a bit of lag and was saving up for a strong push but it doesn't appear so.

Attenuation is one thing, but I'm particularly curious about the sensory indicators. This is probably the worst stage to taste/smell so I'm going to wait until next week for that.
 

MHB

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What did you do with the "Control" any aeration at all, shaken, stirred... or just yeast into the wort?
Mark
 

Adr_0

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MHB said:
What did you do with the "Control" any aeration at all, shaken, stirred... or just yeast into the wort?
Mark
6hrs on the stir plate - very scientific, but essentially trying to get oxygenation without too much growth.

All yeast was split down from a fresh 1L starter.

Control was 500mL starter on the stirplate into 12L, while the others were 150mL into 2.5L.

The ratio is about 24:1 in the control and 16-18:1 in the tests. Technically more yeast in the tests but I'm not sure how much difference that makes.
 

big78sam

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I finally got round to using the o2 setup. Nice healthy ferment, finished much lower than im used to. IPA got down from 1058 to 1010 with us05. I will be doing this every beer from now on.
 

big78sam

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I promise not to post after every beer but i had to update after brewing my first ever barleywine. Og 1095. 2 rehydrated packets of us05. I hit it with o2 for 2 minutes on pitching and then another 45 seconds 15 hours later (per the yeast book suggestion for big beers). I fermented at 17.5 degrees and it was at 1024 after a week, then ramped up to 20 degrees for 4 more days to finish. It finished at 1016. I didnt expect to get that low. Theres no way i would have got that attenuation without the 02. It is such a good investment.
 

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Hey all, can anyone recommend a check valve and shut off valve suitable for using with pure oxygen? Currently butchering parts from the Brewman oxy kit which is using 1/4" ID / 3/8" OD gas line so that sizing in either barb or push-in would be great, although I suspect that 6 mm ID / 8 mm OD would be fine too. I was assuming I could find something in the John Guest range but they appear to be for air and inert gases (CO2, N2) only.
 
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