French Biere De Garde

[Nick JD]

Sorry Nick but while your BdG may taste like corked wine, mine doesn't so I call bollocks.

There's a hint of funk in there. Unmistakable. I don't know how you'd mamage to miss it as it's the signature flavour of BdG.

I ferment mine on the warm end of the range (~25-30C). You're saying you get no funkiness with 3725?

 

[manticle]

I'm not saying I get none but I wouldn't describe it as corked wine. Maybe it's the ferment temps - I ran mine at normal ale temps with a slight boost towards the end (much as I would any Belgian type).

Possibly it's the warm temps that gave you that flavour which sounds unpleasant.

I was quite surprised at how restrained the esters were from that yeast - subtle, smooth and creamy. Try it again with a lower temp and see.

To me the saison yeast will give a completely different beer (still lovely). Do you get corked wine from trois monts?

 

[Nick JD]

Other people describe it as "musty" - but I have never tasted "must" so I can't compare it to that, but it's not unpleasant - it's like an old wardrobe. The smell of an old shed that no one's opened in a decade.

Damp, rotting wood. Smell of the forest floor. Humus.

I did heaps of them last summer and always got the same character. I prefer the estery Belgians to BdG if I'm warm fermenting.

Never tried trois monts.

 

[manticle]

Trois mont's lovely - like a slightly funkier Duvel.

May just be preference or may just be the warm ferment. I passed mine out at a recent case swap and didn't get suggestions of must. Got a couple of bottles left so I'll crack one with a brewing buddy and see if we can pick it up.

 

[Muscovy_333]

Trois mont's lovely - like a slightly funkier Duvel.

May just be preference or may just be the warm ferment. I passed mine out at a recent case swap and didn't get suggestions of must. Got a couple of bottles left so I'll crack one with a brewing buddy and see if we can pick it up.

Manticle/Nick JD,

Any suggestions on ferm temps for 3724 Belgian Saison?

I was planning on around 29 degrees C to keep it from stalling but heck i'd love your advise for subtle esters.

I dont want to lose my malt and hops too much amongst the esters...

Manticle, I've ripped off the rest of your process, perhaps i should have got you to brew it for me!

 

[Muscovy_333]

Bump diddy bump.

 

[Nick JD]

Manticle/Nick JD,

Any suggestions on ferm temps for 3724 Belgian Saison?

I was planning on around 29 degrees C to keep it from stalling but heck i'd love your advise for subtle esters.

I dont want to lose my malt and hops too much amongst the esters...

Manticle, I've ripped off the rest of your process, perhaps i should have got you to brew it for me!

Manticle is the one to ask about the French Saison, but if you're into subtle esters, 3724 is not for you! The French might be more what you're after.

I'm pretty sure that 3724 will produce buckets of esters (mainly pear for me, some clove and banana) at any temperature that doesn't put it to sleep.

It's like CPA yeast on steriods. Dry with huge amounts of pear. There's even a part of me that would like to believe that Coopers yeast is a mellowed out Saison yeast.

 

[pk.sax]

just hop it higher to suppress the esters

 

[manticle]

Manticle/Nick JD,

Any suggestions on ferm temps for 3724 Belgian Saison?

I was planning on around 29 degrees C to keep it from stalling but heck i'd love your advise for subtle esters.

I dont want to lose my malt and hops too much amongst the esters...

Manticle, I've ripped off the rest of your process, perhaps i should have got you to brew it for me!

Appreciate the credit but I don't have a patent on step mashing etc.

I ran my 3724 as hot as I could but Melbourne temps haven't been crazy hot (and during the few crazy hot days we did get, my belgian saison was in the cc fridge. As far as I can work out this yeast though it needs to run very high 20s/low 30s to actually work. Running it too cool will probably result in stalling rather than subtlety.

That said, I don't find my Belgian saison to be over the top ester wise - I do like funky beers though and over the top for me would probably be esters I dislike (not a huge fan of banana for example or beer that tastes too appley).


For my money the 3711 or the biere de garde fermented cooler should give subtlety but subtelty is a really subjective thing. I guess for me it's about how well the end results balance with each other.

 

[Muscovy_333]

Appreciate the credit but I don't have a patent on step mashing etc.

I ran my 3724 as hot as I could but Melbourne temps haven't been crazy hot (and during the few crazy hot days we did get, my belgian saison was in the cc fridge. As far as I can work out this yeast though it needs to run very high 20s/low 30s to actually work. Running it too cool will probably result in stalling rather than subtlety.

That said, I don't find my Belgian saison to be over the top ester wise - I do like funky beers though and over the top for me would probably be esters I dislike (not a huge fan of banana for example or beer that tastes too appley).


For my money the 3711 or the biere de garde fermented cooler should give subtlety but subtelty is a really subjective thing. I guess for me it's about how well the end results balance with each other.

Fair call....

I have the Belgian 3724 in my hands now so that will be the beast i run with.

I wont mess with ferm temps, but instead will let it do its thing in all its glory, i suspect i will be able to hold high 20's -low 30's with my set-up.

It is obviously my first time using it so it can serve as my "benchmark Saison".

The only esters that really bother me are cidery/apple volatiles. I'd be more than happy with bananas and pears.

subtlety = balanced for me....yes, very subjective.

Thanks for your help all.

 

[manticle]

I've had no cider with any of those yeasts so all else being equal, you should be right.

 

[Muscovy_333]

First Saison brewed today:

#21 Le Francaise Saison (Belgian Pale Ale)

Original Gravity (OG): 1.036 (P): 9.0
Final Gravity (FG): 1.009 (P): 2.3
Alcohol (ABV): 3.54 %
Colour (SRM): 3.3 (EBC): 6.4
Bitterness (IBU): 22.6 (Average - No Chill Adjusted)

75% Pilsner
12.5% Wheat Malt
6.25% Munich I
6.25% Vienna

0.9 g/L Strisselspalt (2.5% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil)
0.9 g/L Styrian Golding (2.6% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil)
0.7 g/L Strisselspalt (2.5% Alpha) @ 10 Minutes (Boil)
0.4 g/L Styrian Golding (2.6% Alpha) @ 10 Minutes (Boil)
0.9 g/L Strisselspalt (2.5% Alpha) @ 0 Minutes (Boil)
0.7 g/L Styrian Golding (2.6% Alpha) @ 0 Minutes (Boil)


Single step Infusion at 63C for 90 Minutes. Boil for 90 Minutes

Fermented at 29C with Wyeast 3724 - Belgian Saison

Notes: Pilsner= Premium floor malted Bohemian Pilsner Malt
Vienna= JW Vienna
Munich1= Wey Munich1

YEAST: 3724 Wyeast Belgian Saison
Strisselspalt = French Strisselspalt

Mash water treatment for 23 litre batch:
4g of Mg SO4
4g of CaCl2

Sparge water treatment for 23 litre batch:
6g Tamarind paste (mild tartaric souring)

Step Mash:
TEMP: 63/67/75
TIME: 70/10/10

 

[pk.sax]

fwiw, I didn't detect any hint of banana in the one saison I made. I worked hard to keep it above 30C. Even used a heat belt, ******* would never climb over 32C even with the heat belt.

Put a blow torch on it mate.

 

[Muscovy_333]

fwiw, I didn't detect any hint of banana in the one saison I made. I worked hard to keep it above 30C. Even used a heat belt, ******* would never climb over 32C even with the heat belt.

Put a blow torch on it mate.

I know...I was hoping for a week of stinking hot weather!
Setting up the heat pad and blanket as we speak.

Looking forward to smelling the airlock tommorrow!

 

[Muscovy_333]

Progress report;
The Saison had a great start.
Unfortunately my little girl had to be rushed to hospital for a 2 day stint and the Saison got a prolonged dose of heat (sat around 35 degrees) for 2 days.
My little girl is on the mend, but i'm not sure about the Saison.
Temp has dropped back a bit to high 20's with the ocasional "glug" from the airlock.
No distinct smells yet. Had some slight bubblegum and pear early in the piece, but only mild volitiles (good!)
I think it will be right, hasn't stalled but has slowed.
Will check the gravity shortly to see how it is tracking.

For the record, when i hopped with the French Strisslespalt I got a blast of hop spiciness. It was incredible!....so looking forward to tasting the outcome!

 

[Muscovy_333]

Walked into the brew shed this arvo and got bowled over by the sweet aroma of banana...
temp has settled to 30 degrees C, and the airlock has a nice slow and steady "glug" going on.
Back on track!

I'm thinking of splitting my batch, bottling half and putting the other half through a secondary fermentation priming with local Mornington Peninsula Orange Blossom Honey. This Saison is low ABV so could certainly handle a secondary.
Many people added honey to their Saisons'?

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

I have just birthed my first ever Bier De Garde last weekend on the new Herms system. Was going for near 1080 but due to a few dough balls achieved a respectable 1074 @ 30 IBU (Fuggles). I pitched wyeast PC seasonal yeast Bier De Garde.
Smells nice fermenting at 22c. I have a few small vials (1.5ml) I spun on the centrifuge of this yeast (enough for a starter) if some one wants to try it. PM me.
Nev
ED :sp

 

[big d]

Let me know when shes good to go Nev and I will be around for a sample.Will fill the Colonial growler with Kolsch for the visit.

Cheers
Big D

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Let me know when shes good to go Nev and I will be around for a sample.Will fill the Colonial growler with Kolsch for the visit.

Cheers
Big D

D Yes still waiting for that kolsch visit. The Bier de garde is a long maturation job, not ready for sampling for another 6 months.
But there are others coming into season. Super Pils. :icon_cheers:
Nev

 

[Muscovy_333]

Walked into the brew shed this arvo and got bowled over by the sweet aroma of banana...
temp has settled to 30 degrees C, and the airlock has a nice slow and steady "glug" going on.
Back on track!

I'm thinking of splitting my batch, bottling half and putting the other half through a secondary fermentation priming with local Mornington Peninsula Orange Blossom Honey. This Saison is low ABV so could certainly handle a secondary.
Many people added honey to their Saisons'?

Banana's have gone and airlock has slowed right up despite a constant 30-32 degrees C.
Hydrometer has dropped from 1.036 to 1.020 and has slowed right up.

Tasting pretty damn good, mild spice from hops, slight sour, funky, but not over the top.
Obvious residual sweetness from the yeat to be fermented goodies...

So the usual question begs for my first time Saison. Do i rack to secondary, pitch with a clean high attenuating yeast to finish this Saison off?
Or do i leave it to "glug" away despite my hydrometer not dropping points in 3 days at the risk of infection?
I'm leaning toward the former but need a confidence boost...I'm at your mercy!