First time lagering - quick question

[s_t_r_o_b_e]

Hi team. Currently lagering a Marzen with SimoB and it's the first time we've lagered. We've done the primary and diactyl rest and we're about to drop the temp over a few weeks.

Question - should we bottle before dropping the temp, rack into a secondary or just leave it in the primary?

 

[simplefisherman]

Up to you but generally lagering gives the yeast time to 'clean up' after itself, as well as time to drop out protiens etc so unless you're lagering for a very long time, ie over 6 weeks or so, probably best to leave it on the yeast cake.

 

[SimoB]

Our recipe calls for an 8 week lager.... Does that mean we change our tactics? Is the yeast dropping out too much ever a problem? where there is not enough suspended to carbonate once we bottle if we lagered in a secondary?

 

[DJ_L3ThAL]

I lagered my first lager in my fermentation fridge which only gets to 3-4C (so not proper lagering), but it was still enough to drop a fair whack out in the process, so the bottles I had were not quite as carbonated after 4 weeks at room temp as I'd like. I owe Grainer the last couple I have left so I can't test them now that it has been another few weeks. The bulk of that batch was kegged so carbonation is no problem in that sense, but for you guys if bottling it all, I'd look into perhaps a syringe dose of yeast slurry into each bottle, or even mix a couple table spoons of yeast slurry into the bulk priming solution to ensure enough is in the bottle to do the job. Or just keg it :beerbang:

 

[fletcher]

i've also lagered post-bottling in my normal fridge (at about 5C) for about 5-6 weeks and it was great. got that tip from here. bottle and prime as normal, then let carbonate for a few weeks at ambient. once carbed enough, pop them into lagering or your fridge then for as long as you like

EDIT: ferment was 10C, then diacetyl rest at 16-18C, then slowly down to 1C. kept it here for about 5 days before bottling.

 

[s_t_r_o_b_e]

With the carbonation calculators, you enter in the temperature as part of the calculation. Wouldn't the calculator adjust the sugar enough to compensate for the temperature (and therefore lack of yeast)?

 

[s_t_r_o_b_e]

And if we bottled and lagered right away, would they still carbonate?

 

[DJ_L3ThAL]

No they wouldn't, your yeasties will go to sleep at around 5-6C depending on the strain. I don't see how temperature is a part of the equation, it's a simple mass balance of sugar vs. produced CO2, if you add more sugar because there is less yeast, you will have reisdual sugar and therefore sweetness in each bottle. The sugar in there will produce a set amount of Co2 for carbonation that you desire. You therefore can only hope the yeast will chew through it all to have the desired level of carbonation.

Not sure if it is a good idea and you would no doubt have some trub/yeast drop out in the bottle. But perhaps if you don't cold crash for too long, maybe 5C for a couple of days to get the heavy shite out, then bottle and carbonate as normal for 2 weeks at room temperature. Then as fletcher said simply put the bottles in the fridge for extended lagering in the bottle. Downside is you need all the bottles in the fridge and you will have slightly more trub/yeast at the bottom of the bottle.

 

[stm]

Temperature (specifically, the highest temp after fermentation is mostly complete) is part of the equation because it defines the amount of dissolved CO2 you have in your beer when you bottle. The more CO2 in solution, the less sugar you should add for carbonation.

If you do a diacetyl rest, you add more sugar than you if have kept the beer at say 10 degrees and are bottling at 10 degrees.

That is why the carb calculator asks for temp.

 

[DJ_L3ThAL]

Righto, thanks for that Does this amount (for a regular sized 23L batch) vary significantly? As the beer after primary fermentation in a vessel that is not completely air-tight would surely have minimal CO2 in solution at say 10C, versus 18C?

Where's this calculator I'd be interested in seeing the difference in sugar requirements?

 

[stm]

You'd be surprised at how much CO2 stays in solution even when not under pressure. Have a look at:

http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/recipator/brew/widgets/bp.html

for a calculator and some info. About 20% difference in amount of sugar required for 23L at 2.5 volumes, 10 deg vs 18 deg.

 

[DJ_L3ThAL]

Interesting. So back to the OP scenario, if primary fermentation is completed at say 10C, a D-rest employed at 12C for a few days and then it is cold crashed before bottling. Shouldn't the required amount of sugar be based on the D-rest 12C temperature because that is when the CO2 will come out of solution and simply cold crashing it wil not increase the CO2 in solution as it has been lost to the atmosphere?

Which would render those calculations a bit dangerous in some situations unless one was sure to always calculate based on the highest temperature the beer had been after primary fermentation?

 

[Mr. No-Tip]

Interesting. So back to the OP scenario, if primary fermentation is completed at say 10C, a D-rest employed at 12C for a few days and then it is cold crashed before bottling. Shouldn't the required amount of sugar be based on the D-rest 12C temperature because that is when the CO2 will come out of solution and simply cold crashing it wil not increase the CO2 in solution as it has been lost to the atmosphere?

Which would render those calculations a bit dangerous in some situations unless one was sure to always calculate based on the highest temperature the beer had been after primary fermentation?

I've always thought that calc needs a clearer wording about the whole 'highest temp reached' thing, but I don't think its dangerous is it? If I calculate based on a lower temp, I am going to add less sugar and get less co2?

 

[Mr. No-Tip]

STROBE, and anyone else...I found this a really good short resource on lagering:

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Fermenting_Lagers

It covers bottle lagering IIRC.

 

[DJ_L3ThAL]

I've always thought that calc needs a clearer wording about the whole 'highest temp reached' thing, but I don't think its dangerous is it? If I calculate based on a lower temp, I am going to add less sugar and get less co2?

I did not mean physically dangerous, just dangerous in you will stuff things up. Personally I've only ever used one of those calibrated scoops for 330mL, 500mL and 750mL bottle based on table sugar and that has worked well before I ever took into consideration what temperatures my brews had been at.

I even used it for said lager above and ended up with lower than normal carbonation (I believe due to the minimal amount of yeast after cold crashing) from when I do ales, so go figure.

 

[tipsy_mcstagger]

I would have thought the temp should be what the final drinking temp will be as that is when the co2 will be coming out of solution.

 

[SimoB]

So the answer to the OP is use some dry yeast and mix it up in dextrose mix for bottling? 1g per litre should do it. or some yeast slurry - how much i am a bit unsure.

 

[O'Henry]

After diacetyl rest you should drop the temp to 4C till one week before packaging, when it should be dropped to -1C. At 4C the beer may ferment a small amount more, -1C for a week is enough time to drop more yeast and protein if it has already been 4C.

That said, if lagering for more than 4 weeks I'd rack to secondary before chilling to allow as much yeast in suspension to move across while minimizing contact on the dead yeast from fermentation.