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First Biab In The Bottle And Fg Very Low

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Beerisyummy

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Hi AHB's,

I'm not sure if this is a problem or not and I suppose that's my question.

Is going from 1.055 to 1.005 when beersmith predicts 1.010 a problem?


Cheers
Ross.
 
How confident are you that your hydrometer and thermometer are both reading true?
 
How confident are you that your hydrometer and thermometer are both reading true?

Hydrometer was zeroed at 20c. Thermometer is one of several which all give similar results.

The room temp is slightly above 20c at the moment anyway.
 
What are the ingredients, thats a fairly low FG. Not infected?
 
probably mashed lower than expected and nothing to worry about
 
Thanks for the replies so far. I'll post the ingredients list and some more details tomorrow.
I get up at 5 most mornings so I can't spend much more time online tonight.

The beer tastes ok at bottling but just seems really strong. The yeast cake was huge compared to the normal K&K I'm used to.

Really happy with the AG taste already so keen to make things work.
 
OK.


I think I had one to many testers last night while bottling three batches at once so please excuse my previous vague comments. I meant to post this in the beginers section also, so if you mods want to shift it I'll understand why.

Take two.
The recipe was meant to be a SN pale ale clone suggested to me as something a little more interesting by my LHBS.
I had some instructions on a photocopied page to follow and it went something like this:

Pale malt and crystal malt mixed up by LHBS as per recipe for a 10L batch.

Mash at 50c for 30mins and 65c for 60mins. I didn't really know what I was doing but I used a decent thermometer to take readings from the middle of the bag before taking each step off the heat and wrapping in towels.

The first thing I did was heat the water to 51-52c then in went the bag and grains. 50c checked with thermometer and the pot removed from the stovetop and wrapped in towels for the 30mins.

The temp didn't really drop. Maybe 0.5c although it was under three beach towels and on an insulated surface.

Return to stove top and fire up the gas. Around ten minutes later the bag was at 65.5c. Removed from stove and placed under towels again.

An hour later and the temp was 62c.

I then squeezed the **** out of the bag with carpenters hands ( which didn't burn too bad and made short work of the job).

Then I gave it a rolling boil for 90mins with various hop additions as per the instructions.

The 10L container had the contents poured in and was sealed up. Into the bath tub with some cold water and left to cool. The morning after I threw in a starter of US-05.

End of notes from brew day.

Now the recipe book suggested an OG of 1.057-1.059 and a FG of 1.014- 1.016. Running the figures through Beersmith2 gives the same advice.
The fermenter was in my garage for a 12 days at the 20-21c mark.

The first time I tried a sample the first thing that came to mind was a slight cough syrup taste which I looked up on my tasting guide. It seems to me that "Phenolic" is the best matching description.
Now I was a little worried at first until I tested the sample. It came in at 1.006 at 21c. I placed the rest of the sample in a cupboard and tested it a few days later at 1.005.
After tasting a glass of the chilled beer while bottling I was inclined to think that it was just really strong and that was why it tasted a little like cough syrup. A few calcs and it all made perfect sense, except for the really low gravity reading of course.


The temperature of the room which samples are left in before testing rarely changes by more than 1c during the day and was the usual 21c. The day of the brew would have seen higher temps in the kitchen due to all the boiling but I remember running that sample under the cool tap for a bit to compensate. Besides that I tested it again the next day and got the same thing at room temp and the finished beer has been tested more than once.

I hope this gives a little more useful information than my original post. It was totaly crap, I know. :rolleyes:
 
Sounds like you mashed too low for too long

Next time, try just a 66C 60-90 min mash, then raise temp to 78C over 7-10 minutes and pull the bag :)


If you find 66 gives you too drier a beer, try a hotter temp next time, or cooler (64C etc) if its too sweet
 
I'd be seriously considering infection at 1.005 especially with the medicinal flavours.
 
I'd be seriously considering infection at 1.005 especially with the medicinal flavours.

It's a pretty tasty infection then. :D .

In all seriousness I can think of a few points during the fermentation where an infection could have occured. How can someone tell if the beer is infected? What should I be looking, tasting or smelling for?

I've also been trying to go back through the method during fermentation and I think this batch might have suffered some higher temps due to the positioning of the FV. Is it possible that a high fermentation temperature could have this effect on the FG?

Thanks

Ross.

Edit: I'll chill one of the bottles and try it again with a clean palate. I'm still learning how to describe taste characteristics so bear with me.
 
Sounds like you mashed too low for too long

Next time, try just a 66C 60-90 min mash, then raise temp to 78C over 7-10 minutes and pull the bag :)


If you find 66 gives you too drier a beer, try a hotter temp next time, or cooler (64C etc) if its too sweet

Maybe. It was my first crack at AG so it was more of a learning experience than an attempt to make a decent beer. I didn't have a clue how the whole proccess was going to work until I started doing it.

The recipe called for the mash temps used and it came out of one of Dave's (LHBS) books. To be quite honest the whole mash temp thing is duanting at the moment with all the different methods people use. I know they all essentially strive to get a similar result but for now I'm clueless.
A few more attempts, once I get a handle on my equipment, and I should be able to start getting my head around it.

Cheers

Ross.

Edit: I fogot to ask. How much of a difference will a low mash temperature have on yeast attenuation? Is it that big?
 
What yeast are you using? 1.005 from 1.055 is extremely highly attenuative, even if you mashed in the low end of the Beta Amalyse optimal temperature range. Depending on the attenuation of the yeast used, I wouldn't be too surprised if some wild yeast has assisted here. Sometimes wild yeast infections still yeild drinkable beers, but I don't know that I could drink one (from a psychological stand-point).
 
What yeast are you using? 1.005 from 1.055 is extremely highly attenuative, even if you mashed in the low end of the Beta Amalyse optimal temperature range. Depending on the attenuation of the yeast used, I wouldn't be too surprised if some wild yeast has assisted here. Sometimes wild yeast infections still yeild drinkable beers, but I don't know that I could drink one (from a psychological stand-point).

It was a starter I made from a packet of US-05. After my first brew was in the fermenter I started playing around with yeast cultures and "cultivated" a fair few starters from different sources ( much to my wifes delight). The yeast is something that really caught my interest in all the articles I was reading.

It is possible that I have cultured up a mix of wild yeast and US-05 although from what I have read so far this is unlikely. I could be reading the wrong articles so I'll just keep reading and brewing until it all makes sense.

I tested the beer again today and the overall smell and taste is not that bad for a first crack at the AG bandwagon. There's a lot of room for improvement but it's definately on the right track.
I've never been a big fan of the SN Pale Ale in the past so maybe for my next brew i should try something with simple flavours that my palate is used to. Hopefully that will help highlight what's going wrong.
 
How confident are you that your hydrometer and thermometer are both reading true?


I quick picture of the thermometer I've been using. Pretty good so far when checked against known temps. The hydrometer has been zeroed with RO/DI water but I haven't bothered making up a solution to test the higher gravities.
PB202835.jpg


I've got a spare refratcometer lying around which is for salinity. Can I use this after noting the differences with known quantities? They Auto correct for temps with saltwater and I wouldn't even dream of using a hydrometer with my tank. Way to touchy with temperature differentials.

Cheers

Ross.
 
I only ever rehydrate a single pack of US-05 - I have never created a starter first, so I can comment on how this would impact on attenuation, but I've never got it below 1.010, even with psuedo lagers that I've mashed really low. Could just be an outlying occurance though.

What equipment do you use to BIAB? Ie can you step mash?
 
It's not a mash temperature situation. 91% attenuation using US05 ... nah.

75-78% would be what you'd see from a cool mash even if you pitched on a whole yeast cake.

This is a measurment error or a foreign microorganism.

If it's in bottles and tastes good ... drink it quickly! It could still be dropping (in the bottle). BOOM!
 
It's not a mash temperature situation. 91% attenuation using US05 ... nah.

75-78% would be what you'd see from a cool mash even if you pitched on a whole yeast cake.

This is a measurment error or a foreign microorganism.

Not to blow your horn, Nick, but I tend to agree with you on this one.
 
"It was a starter I made from a packet of US-05"
A packet of dry yeast has more than enough yeast cells.You don't need to make a starter with dry yeast.
"I've never been a big fan of the SN Pale Ale in the past so maybe for my next brew i should try something with simple flavours that my palate is used to. Hopefully that will help highlight what's going wrong."
Might i suggest having a look at the recipe dtatbase and doing Dr Smurto's golden ale....bloody easy and it is a lovely beer
This is of course all in my opinion !
Ferg
 
It's not a mash temperature situation. 91% attenuation using US05 ... nah.

75-78% would be what you'd see from a cool mash even if you pitched on a whole yeast cake.

This is a measurment error or a foreign microorganism.

If it's in bottles and tastes good ... drink it quickly! It could still be dropping (in the bottle). BOOM!

Hi Nick,

If that's the case then it's got to be a problem with infection. If the FG gets any lower it'll be water mixed with some paint thinners.

I'm no stranger to using hydrometers and thermometers so I can assure everyone that it wasn't a measurement error ( unless I'm missing something very specific to brewing). If it was measurement error, both the thermometer and hydrometer, decided to play up over a matter of days and then rectify themselves to become calibrated instruments again. I have been known to do that exact thing every so often but not this time I hope.

I just went through the note book again and the readings were as follows:
- 10.23l Based on volume calcs of stockpot. Prior to the boil the wort was reading 1.052 @ 20c.
- After the boil there was 8L and the gravity was 1.070. This was the same the morning after and was one thing I totally stuffed up during the proccess. Next time I'll add more water before the boil.
- I added 2 liters of RO/DI and the reading was 1.055.
- All the water additions have a margin of error due to not having calibrated the FV's just yet. One day I'll take the time to fill them a liter at a time but for now the markings will do.


Your BIAB threads were part of the reason I decided to give AG a go. If it's infected such is life. The taste improvement over a can will keep me coming back to the dark side now so I'll just put it down to being part of the learning curve.


Cheers

Ross.
 
"It was a starter I made from a packet of US-05"
A packet of dry yeast has more than enough yeast cells.You don't need to make a starter with dry yeast.
"I've never been a big fan of the SN Pale Ale in the past so maybe for my next brew i should try something with simple flavours that my palate is used to. Hopefully that will help highlight what's going wrong."
Might i suggest having a look at the recipe dtatbase and doing Dr Smurto's golden ale....bloody easy and it is a lovely beer
This is of course all in my opinion !
Ferg

G'day Fergs,

I made the starters just to play with the yeast and see how it worked. Seven solid batches later and the only difference I'll be making is trying out some of the different varieties available in liquid form.
My wife drinks those little pear juice nectars so I just cultured it up and made some bottles of my own liquid yeast. Those little bottles have a crown seal top and fit really well at the back of the fridge without too much impact on the other stuff being stored.

I have been looking at the golden ale recipe. You've twisted my arm, not that it needed much twisting.


Cheers
Ross.
 
So my next question is to do with aggitation of the fermenter.
Is it possible to get a yeast to ferment at such a high level of attenuation using a mixture of low temp mashing, Medium to high fermenting temps and constant aggitation of the FV?
I ask because ther was no room on my bench for this batch and I was moving it around a couple of times a day. It was basically sitting wedged between my garage door and the front of my ute every night which meant it was being moved out of the way each morning as well. Being in a 10L water bottle it was gingerly tossed aside each time without much spilling.
Like I said, I can think of several chances for infection to have taken hold. The next small batch is going in the 15L water cooler bottle I scored today so hopefully I can reduce the invitation to infection caused by the explosive foam that went everywhere this time around.

Thanks for all your input people.
 
Update on the SNPA that went feral.
A week later and it tastes pretty good. In fact, It has mellowed out and the medicinal flavours have all but disappeared. I'll be leaving some for a more experience palate to try out and report back on that when it happens.
It's over carbed from my method of priming but it seems to be very drinkable. I'd say it was infected and dropping but I only have a basic sugar scoop and it's in little bottles so that's my guess. A few more weeks will tell the whole story.
23 in the garage at the moment so temps are high for the yeast.
The ABV seems to be quite high as beersmith would suggest.
I know this doesnt' mean much but I just did a rough check on the SG out of one of the bottles and the reading is roughly 1.005.

Now, I've done another AG batch and have treated it right this time in my DIY fridge. I don't want to test my theory on the high attenuation so could someone please push me in the right direction for the results of aggitation during fermentation. After all of my research, this seems like the most obvious cause.

Cheers
Ross.
 
Update on the SNPA that went feral.
A week later and it tastes pretty good. In fact, It has mellowed out and the medicinal flavours have all but disappeared. I'll be leaving some for a more experience palate to try out and report back on that when it happens.
It's over carbed from my method of priming but it seems to be very drinkable. I'd say it was infected and dropping but I only have a basic sugar scoop and it's in little bottles so that's my guess. A few more weeks will tell the whole story.
23 in the garage at the moment so temps are high for the yeast.
The ABV seems to be quite high as beersmith would suggest.
I know this doesnt' mean much but I just did a rough check on the SG out of one of the bottles and the reading is roughly 1.005.

Now, I've done another AG batch and have treated it right this time in my DIY fridge. I don't want to test my theory on the high attenuation so could someone please push me in the right direction for the results of aggitation during fermentation. After all of my research, this seems like the most obvious cause.

Cheers
Ross.
Ill keep it simple....
Don't...
Yes yeast need oxygen during its initial growth phase but after that , you can leave them alone to do their thing.Some simple agitation is accetable if your yeast has stalled or flocced out but by continual agitation during fermenation , your introducing oxygen that will spoil your beer.
Cheers
Ferg
 
Ill keep it simple....
Don't...
Yes yeast need oxygen during its initial growth phase but after that , you can leave them alone to do their thing.Some simple agitation is accetable if your yeast has stalled or flocced out but by continual agitation during fermenation , your introducing oxygen that will spoil your beer.
Cheers
Ferg

Hi Ferg,

Thanks for stating the obvious mate. :D Good advice nonetheless and I thank you for it. Honestly.
All I've really been trying to figure out is if the brew is infected, or if it's just been subjected to some really poor brewing methods that have caused the low FG. With a taste like the glass I'm enjoying right now I can't see them lasting too long anyway so the oxygenation shouldn't be too big an issue.
I'm still keen to learn so maybe I'll hide some from myself until the next AG is ready. Hopefully I'll forget all about them then.

Loving the Chinook hops.
 
Ross, did you ever get to the bottom of this? Just bottled my first BIAB and FG was showing 1.007 down from 1.047 using US-05 (predicted 1.010).

Not quite as extreme attenuation as yours, but worried about possible infection (yes, overly paranoid new brewer!).
 
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