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first AG dry lager attempt (questions)

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fletcher

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hey all,

just wanted to ask a few questions about making my first AG BIAB lager. it'll be a japanese lager clone-y type beer, very basic, dry and light, and minimal IBUs just to see if i can get the style right. i'm also keen to try an adjunct like rice if possible. the recipe is below:



Dragon Punch Dry
Premium American Lager

Recipe Specs
----------------
Batch Size (L): 10.0
Total Grain (kg): 2.300
Total Hops (g): 28.00
Original Gravity (OG): 1.050 (°P): 12.4
Final Gravity (FG): 1.012 (°P): 3.1
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 5.04 %
Colour (SRM): 3.0 (EBC): 6.0
Bitterness (IBU): 23.7 (Average)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 75
Boil Time (Minutes): 60

Grain Bill
----------------
2.000 kg Pilsner (86.96%)
0.200 kg Rice Hulls (8.7%)
0.100 kg Dextrose (4.35%)

Hop Bill
----------------
8.0 g Hallertau Mittlefrueh Pellet (6.3% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil) (0.8 g/L)
8.0 g Hallertau Mittlefrueh Pellet (6.3% Alpha) @ 20 Minutes (Boil) (0.8 g/L)
12.0 g Saaz Pellet (3.6% Alpha) @ 7 Minutes (Boil) (1.2 g/L)

Misc Bill
----------------
0.5 g Whirlfloc Tablet @ 15 Minutes (Boil)

Single step Infusion at 63°C for 60 Minutes.
Fermented at 12°C with Wyeast 2007 - Pilsen Lager


questions:

1. is mashing at 63 too low? i've read it can get quite lower but there are a lot of problems if TOO low. what is the best temperature for a very dry lager?
2. adding dextrose to the boil. when is this done? i can't find any information online about when to add dextrose to the boil. i've seen some recipes write that it's a 5 minute addition. any info here would be great.
3. adding rice. i'd like to add rice and have read about cereal mashes, but think at this stage and with my limited experience, this is a little too much to take in just yet. i've read you can add minute rice (is that the same as microwave rice?) those packet ones you heat up for 90 minutes? can these be added straight to the mash?

any other tips or help is appreciated. thank you :)
 

yum beer

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Change the rice hulls for flaked rice or add some boiled white rice to the mash. Hulls are for aiding the sparge so it doesnt get stuck.
Temp could go a little lower for a bit more dryness or even a little extra dex. add anytime you like it doesnt really make any difference you just need it in there.
 

Helles

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Last week i added 10% jasmine rice to a Cream Ale
Just cooked it with the absorbtion method the night before
When i added it to the mash in the morning it all broke up and distributed evenly in mash
Still fermenting dont know how beer will work out but Quality Control (hydrometer) tells me it is good
40lts of this was done with a lager yeast 20lt 34/70 - 20lts S-23
60lts with a mix of 1272 and 1084 both ales
 

Thefatdoghead

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Even easier, just get some flaked maize and add about 5% to 10% depending on mash temp. 63 is ok but if your adding adjunct as well just do 90 minutes at 65 degrees and you'll get a nice dry beer with some body to it.
 

fletcher

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@yum - oh yeah it was never rice hulls, but that's what Brew Mate had in it's list of ingredients so i just used that as a place holder for the rice adjunct. cheers for the info too. i'll add the dextrose last; maybe around whirlfloc time.

@helles - that sounds like something i'd do mate. did you keep that cooked rice refrigerated or at room temp before adding to mash in the morning?

@gav80 - thanks mate. for some reason i was keen to try rice as i've read it doesn't impart any flavour and i didn't want it to get any sweetness from corn (trying to emulate a fine, crisp japanese lager). i might kick up the mash time or maybe even add more dex to get some dryness.

thanks guys :)
 

Nick JD

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A 10L batch at 63C might drop below 60C well before 60 minutes are up and affect your efficiency/conversion.

Make sure you insulate the hell out of it. Perhaps at 30 minutes, check the temp and bring it back up to 63 while stirring.

Boil the shit out of your rice in a big pot until it's falling apart, drain it and let it cool to room temp and add it direct to your mash with your malt. Easier than calculating temps when it's still warm. Because you made 600g ... divide it into 3 and freeze the other two for later so you don't need to faff about next time.
 

fletcher

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Nick JD said:
A 10L batch at 63C might drop below 60C well before 60 minutes are up and affect your efficiency/conversion.

Make sure you insulate the hell out of it. Perhaps at 30 minutes, check the temp and bring it back up to 63 while stirring.

Boil the shit out of your rice in a big pot until it's falling apart, drain it and let it cool to room temp and add it direct to your mash with your malt. Easier than calculating temps when it's still warm. Because you made 600g ... divide it into 3 and freeze the other two for later so you don't need to faff about next time.
thanks mate. thanks for the tip with the rice. sounds like a good method for me...simple too :)

i'll definitely check on the mash temp. i have an induction glass stove top which stays warm after flameout, which i've discovered works beautifully for keeping the temp spot on throughout 60 mins. might need a heat up for 90 though. that and a sh!tload of towels helps me keep it good so hopefully that should be cool.
 

mikec

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If you want that Jap Lager style, up the rice to about 25%.
 

micblair

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I recently stepped mashed at 63C (45 mins), 69C (20 mins) and 75C (15 min) as I'm always striving for as little residual sweetness. Some have recommended even dropping the Mash-out.

Anyway, I'm always wary mashing too low, as you want to be over the gelatinisation temp of your base malts (60C-65C). Also you need to mash longer as B-amylase works slower than Alpha amylase due to the lower temp.

According to Braukaiser, 65C offers the best trade off between mash time and fermentability.
 

DUANNE

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the way i go about these types of beers is to boil the crap out of the rice and use it as part of my mash liquor when i mash in. i will then mash at 63 for at least 90 mins before stepping up to 68 for 20 mins or so to make sure all starch from the grain is gelatinised and converted and mash out at 76 or so. i will usually hop at 90 mins for 15 or so ibu with whatever high alpha hop i have on hand. variety does not matter because in a 20 litre batch its usually less than 10 grams of hops in total leading to very low to no hop flavour and aroma coming through as per style guidelines. when its chilled pitch cold with a big pitch and ferment out. this beer has been very well recieved by megaswill drinking mates and is a very clean beer for slamming on stinking hot days.
 

KaiTroester

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micblair said:
I recently stepped mashed at 63C (45 mins), 69C (20 mins) and 75C (15 min) as I'm always striving for as little residual sweetness. Some have recommended even dropping the Mash-out.

Anyway, I'm always wary mashing too low, as you want to be over the gelatinisation temp of your base malts (60C-65C). Also you need to mash longer as B-amylase works slower than Alpha amylase due to the lower temp.

According to Braukaiser, 65C offers the best trade off between mash time and fermentability.
yes, you don't want to mash only at 63 C. In order to access the starches that need a bit higher temp to gelatenize I recommend stepping the temp up to 65 and then 68, similar to what micblair suggests.

Another thing you need to watch out for is incomplete fermentation. I recommend doing the Fast Ferment Test to check the attenuation limit of the wort and keep the beer at fermentation temp until the yeast comes close to that attenuation.

Kai
 

fletcher

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cheers guys. thanks for the mashing tips. it'll be my first more-than-one-step-mash then also :)
 

Nick JD

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I do isothermal mashes at 63C all the time. Especially for my CPA-style Aussie Ales. 90 minutes though - with a 10 minute rest at 55C first.
 

micblair

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Hey Nick care to share an Aussie Ale recipe? I'm working on a Aussie Lager recipe, but with some late hops for aroma. Previously used 80% Pils, 10% Munich, 5% wheat and 5% dextrose. Bittered with POR and flameout Hallertaue. Got any tips?
 

Nick JD

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Here's a couple of Aussie Ale recipes - don't be put off by the simplicity of the second one! It's CRISP and zingy. WLP009 is CPA's bottle yeast.

Amarillo & Cascade AAA (Australian Amber Ale)

Original Gravity (OG): 1.056 (°P): 13.8
Final Gravity (FG): 1.014 (°P): 3.6
Alcohol (ABV): 5.50 %
Colour (SRM): 15.2 (EBC): 29.9
Bitterness (IBU): 34.5 (Average)

86.63% Pale Ale Malt
9.9% Caramunich III
2.48% Melanoidin
0.99% Roasted Barley

2.6 g/L Amarillo (9.2% Alpha) @ 15 Minutes (Boil)
1.8 g/L Cascade (5.8% Alpha) @ 15 Minutes (Boil)


Single step Infusion at 64°C for 60 Minutes. Boil for 60 Minutes

Fermented at 20°C with WLP009 - Australian Ale


Recipe Generated with BrewMate

Cascade CPA (Australian Pale Ale)

Original Gravity (OG): 1.050 (°P): 12.4
Final Gravity (FG): 1.013 (°P): 3.3
Alcohol (ABV): 4.91 %
Colour (SRM): 3.3 (EBC): 6.4
Bitterness (IBU): 37.2 (Average)

100% Pilsner

1.5 g/L Cascade (8.9% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil)


Single step Infusion at 63°C for 60 Minutes. Boil for 60 Minutes

Fermented at 20°C with WLP009 - Australian Ale


Recipe Generated with BrewMate
 

KaiTroester

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Nick JD said:
I do isothermal mashes at 63C all the time. Especially for my CPA-style Aussie Ales. 90 minutes though - with a 10 minute rest at 55C first.
Nick,

What efficiency are you getting with the highest rest temp being 63 C?

Kai
 

Nick JD

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Without sparge ~70%; with sparge slightly under 80% (depending how much dunk sparging I can be bothered doing).

BIAB, very finely milled grain. Volume-limited high-gravity brewing with a variable grain bill and a constant volume (hence the vague efficiency ranges).
 

fletcher

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so when you say rest at 55C, is that what you start your mash at?

rest there for 10 mins, then raise to 63C?

does the time going from 55 to 63 matter that much?

i'd like to try my recipe like this if it'll help with efficiency (that's double infusion isn't it?).

i'm currently sparging also and was at about 77% last time with a simple batch sparge.
 

Nick JD

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Yes. I start the mash at 55C, and then infuse to 63C after ten minutes.
 

micblair

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I only notice the clarity of the wort improving once I'm in the high 60's, and I usually get jump in the OG too. Otherwise looks pretty starchy.
 

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