Fermenting Same lager at 10c Vs 18c comparison on Brewing Radio

[user 25501]

I'm sure many of you have already heard of Basic Brewing Radio, if not here's the link....
http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?page=radio
I just listened to an interesting podcast July 16, 2015 - Brulosopher NHC Experiments
Where they blind taste test the same Brew fermented at 10c Vs 18c with more than 10 tasters and not many picked the difference.
I'd like to know if he lagered the brew after ferment?
They also did a 1st wort Hopping Vs 60min Boil with a marginally different result.
I'm interested in the lager though. It would save me some effort if I could brew at 18c. I'm supposing I'd still have to cold codtion for a number of weeks after?
Any thoughts/ experiences with this. Yeah, Yeah I know, I could try it myself. But I'd like to hear what other think.

 

[technobabble66]

Fwiw, my first 2 attempts at lagers are now almost 2 weeks in the bottle.
Both done with S-189.
One was fermented at 14*c for the first 36hrs then allowed to rise 1*c every 1-2 days up to 20*c. The other was the same but started at 16*c. D-rest for a few days at 20*c. They were then lagered for almost 3 weeks at 2*c.
I tried the 2nd one last night. Pretty damn good, if I do say so myself. I just need to try it compared to, say a VB and a Boags Premium, then a good German Oktoberfest.
But it at least turned out a decent beer.

I chose the S189 after reading lots and lots of reports of great results from it at 16-18*c. Ross does/did a couple of lagers at 18*c that have received much praise, and I believe no flaws detected.
Not sure about how other yeasts would go at high temps. Supposedly the San Fran Lager yeast is good for it also.

Which strain did the brulosopher use?

 

[GalBrew]

In all the 'exbeeriments' I have read on that website have the panel of tasters ever managed to detect anything? I personally take everything I read on that website with a grain of salt and would not be game to ferment a lager at 18C, when I can just set it at 12C (what's the difference?).

 

[technobabble66]

In all the 'exbeeriments' I have read on that website have the panel of tasters ever managed to detect anything? I personally take everything I read on that website with a grain of salt...

Yeah. I'd agree with this also.
I definitely find his results interesting and noteworthy for further discussion/testing. But I've also seen a few of the experiments done with IPAs etc where I wonder how well could the average joe detect whether he'd pissed in it, let alone fine differences in quality.
I'm a big fan of his testing/challenging of previously accepted procedures/beliefs etc, but I just take his findings w a little grain of salt in recognition of the looseness of his scientific procedures.

Sorry Damn, bit OT.

 

[user 25501]

Which strain did the brulosopher use?

WLP800

And yeah I agree, they do seem a bit disorganised, not exactly scientific, but there's more experience on that panel than I've got. It just reminds me to keep an open mind. Just because Jamil suggests to ferment at 10c doesn't make it gospel.

 

[crowmanz]

Here is the "exbeeriment" link from Brulosophers website:
http://brulosophy.com/2015/06/22/fermentation-temperature-pt-3-lager-yeast-exbeeriment-results/

He used a guick lager method - http://brulosophy.com/methods/lager-method/

Take his experiment results with a grain of salt, http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/86620-brulosophy/

 

[danestead]

(what's the difference?).

Speed of fermentation and not everyone has the ability to temp control their fermentations.

 

[MHB]

My limited reading of the exbeeriment leads me to think they contain as much real science as Myth Busters = 0!

Speed of fermentation and not everyone has the ability to temp control their fermentations.

I would rate control of your fermentation as more important than going AG, it really is fundamental to producing consistent quality beer, I wouldn't even think about trying to make Lager outside a temperature controlled environment. Temp control is ridiculously cheap, an STC-1000, an old fridge and ideally put a small fan in there and every beer you brew will be better for it.
My favourite brewing saying is "everything ends up in the glass" and I care about what I drink.
Mark

 

[technobabble66]

Just read the printed version of it in crowmanz link above.

Basically no significant difference statistically between them, though maybe a *slight* difference in the aroma (that only a small number detected).

Seems like a pretty decent effort at a (loose) experiment and his discussion seemed reasonable.
Maybe a lower-bittered lager and one without a lot of late hops (1.5g/L at both 10mins and flameout. Seriously?!) would've been better, but there's still not much to hide behind in a Boh Pils if there are flaws.
And the tasting panel was certainly a cut above some of his previous efforts.
He does emphasize (the near certainty of) these "neutral" findings being strain dependent. And that the large starter might've compensated significantly for the high temp.

I'd still apply a hefty grain of salt, but definitely one of his better ones.
Maybe he/someone needs to try it again, but with just a bittering charge of hops; and another with a slightly under-pitched amount of yeast. Methinks the difference will be more noticeable :lol:

 

[danestead]

My limited reading of the exbeeriment leads me to think they contain as much real science as Myth Busters = 0!


I would rate control of your fermentation as more important than going AG, it really is fundamental to producing consistent quality beer, I wouldn't even think about trying to make Lager outside a temperature controlled environment. Temp control is ridiculously cheap, an STC-1000, an old fridge and ideally put a small fan in there and every beer you brew will be better for it.
My favourite brewing saying is "everything ends up in the glass" and I care about what I drink.
Mark

I'm a bit confused with your reply to my quote Mark?

The person I quoted stated why would you ferment at 18 degrees when you can just ferment at 12 degrees. I was merely stating that not everyone has the ability to ferment at 12 deg and that the beer would ferment quicker at 18 degrees. I would love lagers to ferment quicker hence I see that as a reason people may experiment with warmer ferments. I was not commenting on the quality of the resultant beer in any way.

Sorry if that was misleading.

 

[user 25501]

He used a guick lager method - http://brulosophy.com/methods/lager-method/

This is useful. I question why I lagered mine for 5 weeks. Sorry to deviate.

 

[goatchop41]

Yeah. I'd agree with this also.
I definitely find his results interesting and noteworthy for further discussion/testing. But I've also seen a few of the experiments done with IPAs etc where I wonder how well could the average joe detect whether he'd pissed in it, let alone fine differences in quality.
I'm a big fan of his testing/challenging of previously accepted procedures/beliefs etc, but I just take his findings w a little grain of salt in recognition of the looseness of his scientific procedures.

Sorry Damn, bit OT.

Even though they aren't perfect, they still do fairly well to isolate a variable. What I take from it is that if there is a good chance that BJCP judges can't taste a difference, then I (and my friends who drink my beer) will be quite unlikely to taste a difference

 

[Coodgee]

Seems worth a try for sure

 

[MHB]

I'll stick with what I said

I'm a bit confused with your reply to my quote Mark?

The person I quoted stated why would you ferment at 18 degrees when you can just ferment at 12 degrees. I was merely stating that not everyone has the ability to ferment at 12 deg and that the beer would ferment quicker at 18 degrees. I would love lagers to ferment quicker hence I see that as a reason people may experiment with warmer ferments. I was not commenting on the quality of the resultant beer in any way.

Sorry if that was misleading.

I'll stick with what I said, I think its clear enough.
If you want to make beer consistently you need temperature control - rather than relying on the vagaries of weather.
I think investing in decent fermentation control is more important to the production of good consistent beer than is making your wort and the investment that takes - get good temp control first - its worth it!

Even though they aren't perfect, they still do fairly well to isolate a variable. What I take from it is that if there is a good chance that BJCP judges can't taste a difference, then I (and my friends who drink my beer) will be quite unlikely to taste a difference

There may be an element of truth in that. but when we judge a comp there should always be a calibration beer or two, if you aren't familiar with a style it would be a very good idea to taste a couple of the sighted exemplars of that style before judging it.
In this case they are they are tasting two beers to see if there is a difference between the two caused by the fermentation temperature, but that could easily be a case of judging between bad and worse rather than between good and better, there is no objective way to tell if the wort was well made, it was well aerated, it had the right balance of nutrients, if the yeast was healthy, the temperature was well maintained, the lagering achieved the goals of the process...
We are in effect asked to take their word that the beer is perfect (well pretty damn good anyway) and that the only difference comes from the fermentation temperature. To me that's pretty crappy science (actually it isn't science at all).
Blind tasting the two "Test" beers alongside a couple of commercial control examples would be likely to address some of the concerns.
Mark

 

[Bribie G]

I have no Idea what Bacchus do nowadays but when Ross took over all the beers were fermented in 18 or 19 degree cool room then transferred to a lagering room for cold conditioning.
Using s-189 or S-23 for the lagers I believe.
At the tasting taps their lagers were clean as a whistle with nothing funky or fruity.

 

[mje1980]

I wish my warm fermented lagers tasted as good as the cold fermented ones ( pitched cold and fermented cold ). It'd save a lot of time and some effort. But to me, they just don't taste anywhere near as good as when I make a big starter, pitch cold and just wait for them to be done. Even the pitched cold, then raised up quickly ones don't seem to be as good as just cold all the way

 

[Rocker1986]

This is useful. I question why I lagered mine for 5 weeks. Sorry to deviate.

Bit O/T, but I can vouch for the quick lager method at least. My last 4 or 5 batches have been done this way and all of them have been just as good as ones I've done where I waited longer before raising the temp and then lagered them for extended periods in the FV. As such I've ditched the drawn out method and am only leaving lagers in the FV for 4 weeks now. Much happier not tying up the brew fridge for ages on one f-ing batch.

Back to the topic I would be hesitant fermenting these batches at 18C for the WHOLE time.. even though those tasters apparently couldn't detect much difference, but maybe it depends on the yeast as others have mentioned. I do enjoy the Brulosophy site, mainly due to the challenging of accepted/traditional ideas, but aside from the quick lager method I haven't changed any of my brewing and fermenting process as a result of it. It's just something interesting and different to read.

 

[fishingbrad]

Great yeast that S-189. My go to lager yeast. I ferment it @11c for 2 weeks, raise to 18c for 2 days and then crash.

 

[Barge]

All my BoPils have been fermented at 18C with S-189 and have been really good.

 

[glenwal]

The only thing that really matters is if you can taste the difference. And the only real way to find that it is to try it your self.

If your entering a beer in a comp is a different story, but if you can't pick it in a beer your brewing fit yourself, then who cares.

And even if you can pick it, it's still your call on if you think it's worth it.

"Off" flavors don't necessarily taste bad, it's just some flavors don't technically belong in certain styles. But your tastes don't have to align to technical styles.

Temp control is still important though, as it allows for consistency/repeatability, so you know if you liked it last time it was fermented at x degrees, then you can do it again and you'll like it this time.