Fermenting on Hot Break?

[seamad]

That's going to lower your OG

 

[bum]

That's going to lower your OG

And body and flavour and, well, the beer, IMO.

Let's ignore all that for a minute - technobabble66, why do you feel this plan alters the amount of break materials that you end up with in the fermenter? That plan changes your beer significantly (can be factored in to the recipe, of course), introduces an infection vector and doesn't seem to have any benefit for the context in which you've introduced it here at all.

Tilt, I'd be very interested to see your thoughts on how one might NOT ferment on trub.

 

[Tilt]

Yeah Bum - thats partly my point.
My process includes fermenting on some trub - and this thread takes it further to ferment on all of the trub.
If there was a problem with trub fermented beers then it might be worthwhile filtering the wort pre ferment or racking off the trub at 12 hours into the ferment.
Nothing here indicates trub is a problem so no reason to bother. Suits me .

 

[Sam England]

I did some side by side ferments a couple of years back and found that it's definitely worth leaving most of the break material out if you can (see here aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/69672-kettle-contents-to-cube/?p=992932). Some cold break obviously gets across, but as discussed previously that's more beneficial than detrimental from what I've read.

To summarise the experiment and my other post, I made Ross' NS Summer Ale, skimmed as much hot break as possible off at the start of boil, whirl-flocced and chilled to pitching temp. 25L batch, top 15L as control into fermenter 1 (F1), 2nd 5L into fermenter 2 and the remaining 5L of trub and wort into fermenter 3. They all had a suitable US05 starter split appropriately between them and were fermented at the same temp. There was about 2L of trub in F3 after settling but it was pretty light and pillowy. F2 & F3 were 6L glass jars with airlocks that I had been using for starters. Blind tasting with a few homebrewing mates and we couldn't pick the difference between 1 & 2, but 3 was definitely the worst. Still drinkable, but it had an astringency or funny taste that wasn't appreciated. I know this is diluted across a whole 25L normally and wouldn't be as noticeable, but it's convinced me to stick with dumping the trub before fermenting. I also use bags for my hops which were flowers in this case, to reduce the amount of trub I get.

Cheers,
BB

 

[bum]

Yeah Bum - thats partly my point.
My process includes fermenting on some trub - and this thread takes it further to ferment on all of the trub.
If there was a problem with trub fermented beers then it might be worthwhile filtering the wort pre ferment or racking off the trub at 12 hours into the ferment.
Nothing here indicates trub is a problem so no reason to bother. Suits me .

Why are you having trouble with the difference between hot break and trub?

 

[Tilt]

No trouble with distinguishing between the two here.

 

[technobabble66]

And body and flavour and, well, the beer, IMO.

Let's ignore all that for a minute - technobabble66, why do you feel this plan alters the amount of break materials that you end up with in the fermenter? That plan changes your beer significantly (can be factored in to the recipe, of course), introduces an infection vector and doesn't seem to have any benefit for the context in which you've introduced it here at all.

Tilt, I'd be very interested to see your thoughts on how one might NOT ferment on trub.

At the risk of being a noob poking the hornets' nest:

I kinda thought if you did a bit of filtering either before pouring into a cube & into the fermenter for a no-chill process, or filtering after the chiller effort in your kettle, you would remove a lot (most?) of the hot & cold break; and that your beer would be much better for it - better stability, less chill haze, less astringency/harshness, etc. i know not all the trub would be removed with all the filtering i might try, and some will always get into the fermenter. I thought the idea originally was to minimise the quantity & hence the impact of the trub that got into the fermenter.

Now that appears to anecdotally not be the case for many home brewers. (not Blue Baggers, obviously)

& i wonder if i can simply circumvent the waste of wort & time by just pouring *everything* into the fermenter, rather than trying to remove a chunk of the 2 breaks/trub; and end up with the same quality.

I think, as a novice, i'm probably just looking to confirm what Nick JD, etc, was saying - that it's ok to leave all the crud in there & just get fermenting already...

-------
:icon_offtopic:
The dilution thing with the ice (drop OG, body, flavour, etc) is no problem - just a simple shift/increase in the ingredients calculations/proportions to compensate for the ice volume.
* Am i missing something here?? Happy to be pointed in the right direction if i am!

The ice is boiled water, poured into ice trays, covered w Glad-wrap, left to cool, covered again with a hard plastic top, into the freezer overnight, & used the next day by being uncovered immediately before going into the hot wort.
I appreciate any additional friggin around always introduces some additional risk of infection, but this process really should minimise that quite a lot.

* Again, am i missing something here??

[the ice/hop stuff was just part of the discussion on late hop additions - apologies for the slight tangent with the ice thing & the hops thing. but feel free to read the Palindrome Ale thread & comment on that there too! ​ ]

 

[wbosher]

Hornets nest poked h34r:

But seriously, everything I've read on this subject seems to point to one conclusion...there is no real evidence to suggest that either way makes any difference.

Personally I throw everything in, after a cc the beer is crystal clear, and no noticable foul taste. Having said that, my sence of smell/taste ain't too flash, but family and friends love my beer so I assume it's not too bad.

 

[seamad]

It would take about 12.5l of ice to drop 20l 95C wort to pitching temp. Not going to work is it.

 

[manticle]

Why would you add iced water at all?

Filtering a no chill brew when running into the cube will not remove cold break as it hasn't formed yet.

Leaving behind most of the hot break is dead simple and much easier with a carrageegan addition and whirlpool than employing extra equipment that may also aerate the brew while hot.

Someone above said no chill brews don't get cold break. That is incorrect. Cold break forms as the brew cools - it just happens quicker when you chill.

I haven't had a chance to listen to the broadcast yet - can someone who has tell me the age of the beers they sampled which were fermented with all the break material?

I'll hopefully download and listen some time this weekend.
For what personal experience is worth - some of my early AG brews got pretty much everything thrown in and I enjoyed them so I don't believe hot break is an instant killer. However none of those were aged (greedy) and I have since made a system that very easily avoids HB and devised methods that reduce the waste (and sometimes age some beers) so it's not something I'm personally needing to test but I'd be interested in the results of somebody else's side by side.

 

[Nick JD]

Listen to the podcast! :angry:

 

[bum]

But seriously, everything I've read on this subject seems to point to one conclusion...there is no real evidence to suggest that either way makes any difference.

Is everything you've read the opinion of lazy homebrewers? That is a serious question. Have you read any texts (even HB-level texts) that support the idea that hot break in primary has no negative side-effects?

 

[Nick JD]

Is everything you've read the opinion of lazy homebrewers? That is a serious question. Have you read any texts (even HB-level texts) that support the idea that hot break in primary has no negative side-effects?

Have you read any that say it does?

 

[bum]

Yes, I have, on many occasions, read about that negative effects hot break has on beer stability. Many of my batches last months or are designed to age for months before cracking the first bottle. Stability is something I need to consider. I accept that the minimum grain to brain crew needn't share this concern.

 

[Nick JD]

What are the compounds that affect the stability?

Are they easily removed with products like polyclar?

EDIT: or are there compounds that change the nature of the fermentation, and these lead to stability issues?

TBH, my main worry with adding all the hotbreak was the fat content of the stuff - and head retention being affected. That didn't happen. The real difference between hot and coldbreak is fat. They are both essentially "Barley Tofu" one being full fat and the other lite.

 

[bum]

You probably have noticed that I am not the most sciency of brewers. I don't spend a lot of time remembering the details, I just try stuff out or remember upshots and go from there.

Yeah, I recall the fat/head retention thing. It hasn't manifested that way for you, that's great but to say that it can't occur (either expressly or by inference) in an environment such as this is not a fair thing to do.

I do recall reading something about it affecting yeast health too. Has some effect on the cell walls? I think this is where the stability issues arise. If I remember this correctly then I can't see polyclar being any help although I guess it could easily improve the head retention side of things.

[EDIT: I half an entire sentence]

 

[Bribie G]

........

No-chillers don't get cold break. I can honestly say that having started out no-chilling, I've really not seen any beer improvement at all by chilling and leaving out cold break. I only do it now so I can quickly pitch and be done. Plus siphoning hot wort is a disaster waiting to happen.

..............

No chillers get heaps of cold break, that's the jellyfish thing floating in the cube the next day. Doesn't do any harm.

Palmer says that you need to chill quickly to get the break. Love his little heart and arsehole but Palmer is a bit behind the time when it comes to no chill.

 

[Lurks]

I meant the break in the kettle so as to be potentially avoided (during transfer) as per discussion. Indeed Palmer and the whole posse of old school brewers have banged on about the need to chill and avoid cold break, which as we know isn't really backed up by modern experience.

As far as hot break, I recall reading some papers on this. The wisdom on this is mostly that proteins in your beer are a risk of longer term stability and staling. So as Manticle points out, it's not that useful to comment exclusively on brand new beers from the trub/no-trub experiment. On the other hand, if you're going to swill it down...

I wonder if chilling fermenters pretty much settles out the proteins anyway so they don't end up in your keg/bottle, which would seem to negate some of the stability concerns. On the other hand, as I mentioned early on, I managed to crank out some rancid stale beers by chucking everything and leaving it for months (in PET). Aside from this anecdote, poor wort stability from hot break is quite well attested. I think Manticle actually provided the link to that paper that I read first time around?

Back on the experiment. It strikes me that the taste differences they get are generally down to having a higher quality ferment in the +trub vessel. This is probably a bit artificial though because surely most of us do suck up cold break (and all no-chillers) and maybe a bit of trub. So you'd hope to be getting near the yeast health benefit as per the +trub experiments in this podcast right?

 

[felten]

:icon_offtopic: I wouldn't say I've heard him bang on about it, but you have to remember that Palmer's online book is about 13 years old. And even the latest edition of How to Brew is coming up on 7 years old.

Maybe there's a 4th edition coming.

 

[Bribie G]

Chinamat is on the ball, I found during my experiment with cold break that the material just seems to settle out and remain neutral at the bottom of the fermenter. FV 2 got all the break, FV 1 got the top clear halves of two cubes (identical brews). It's obvious where the break of all descriptions ended up, very little difference in the two finished beers.

 

[Nick JD]

I do recall reading something about it affecting yeast health too. Has some effect on the cell walls? I think this is where the stability issues arise. If I remember this correctly then I can't see polyclar being any help although I guess it could easily improve the head retention side of things.

That's what I have also read. However, the findings from that podcast were unequivocally that (even in the cases where the tasters prefered the no-break-material sample) the fermentation was more vigorous, quicker and more attenuative.

 

[bum]

The findings of drunk pricks from the internet, yeah? In the study run by other drunk pricks, yeah?

[EDIT: and I'm fairly sure that if I ran all my batches at ~30C I'd experience all those things. I have no idea why these qualities keep getting mentioned as though they prove something.]

 

[goomboogo]

The findings of drunk pricks from the internet, yeah? In the study run by other drunk pricks, yeah?

At least it's a peer reviewed study.

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

Great topic, nowt to add. I didn't post to up my count.

Between some interesting articles, anecdotes, arguments & both bum & NickJD being civil to each other & keeping away from personal attacks, this is what makes AHB such a great resource.

Carry on, gentlemen.

 

[bum]

That's a fairly generous interpretation of the term "drunk pricks", Goom.

 

[tiprya]

Anyone got a link to this paper that shows detriment to long term stability by fermenting on hot break?

 

[manticle]

. They are both essentially "Barley Tofu" one being full fat and the other lite.

According to Bamforth and Lewis, there are other differences besides lipid content.

Polyphenol and carbohydrate concentration is higher in cold break, protein levels are higher in hot break. Hot break particles are larger (~8 times) and flocculate. Close to 5 times more hot break forms during a typical boil than cold does in a typical chill, bitter acids don't exist in cold break and lipids are only found in hot break.

Both types of break contribute to various types of haze (cold to chill haze for example) and non-biological haze is one factor in oxidation reactions and reduction of shelf life. Non- biological hazes are the result of reaction between protein and polyphenol. Polyphenols can be removed post fermentation with silica gels, PVPP, tannic acid and other products. Haze can also be precipitated (and therefore separated from the beer) by extended cold storage. Removal of too much protein (or particular proteins) will affect foam stability/head retention so the best products are designed to target polyphenols without damaging the polypeptides responsible for foam.

I may be reading into this but if hot break has a much higher protein content and cold has a much higher polyphenol content, then the inclusion of both in the wort is to be avoided.

Tiprya - I'll look for some more decent brewing science material on the issue. Maybe Thirsty Boy or MHB if he ever comes back might have some decent links. A lot of commercial stabilisation prcesses though are focussed on removing polyphenols and or polypeptides (also according to bamforth)

 

[Nick JD]

The findings of drunk pricks from the internet, yeah? In the study run by other drunk pricks, yeah?

[EDIT: and I'm fairly sure that if I ran all my batches at ~30C I'd experience all those things. I have no idea why these qualities keep getting mentioned as though they prove something.]

February 23, 2012 - Trub Experiment Results
James and Chris Colby, editor of Brew Your Own magazine, go over the results of the BYO-BBR Collaborative Experiment on kettle trub in the fermenter.

But seriously bum, listen to some of this stuff they're doing. It's not going to be awarded doctorates of philosophy any time soon, but to devalue it like that is a bit trite.

They've recently done a lot on no-chilling. Something we all know works, but the Americans are still skeptical about.

Progress is fueled by the open-minded. Give it a go sometime.

 

[Nick JD]

FFS, Mantickle - listen to the ******* podcast.

If you post one more time in this thread before listeing to it.

I'm going to strangle a lion cub. It's THAT serious. No frickin kittens here!

The concensus was better clarity when fermented on trub. You book-learnin' folk done gone stopped looking at the real world.

 

[Spiesy]

I've aged some beers for up to 2 years before bottling.

Others won't last 2 weeks.

Beer dependent.

Jesus. Must be a terrible beer to last 2-years if other's don't last 2-weeks...