Extract Based Duvel Clone - Comments Please

[hosko11]

I'm pretty new to this caper but wisely or wrongly I'm looking to attempt an extract based duvel clone (hopefully this is the right spot to post this). I've devised the recipe from the info in this thread http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...duvel&st=15 and other bits and pieces. I'm really keen on any feedback regarding the recipe and the steps I'm planning on using. Also, I'm limited by stock pot size (20l) so will be doing a partial boil.
Cheers,
Hosko

Batch size 23l

4.5kg Thomas Coopers light malt extract
0.5 kg Dextrose
0.25kg Carapils
38g Styrian Golding pallets 4.8%@60mins (20.5 IBU)
86g Saaz pallets 4.5%@15mins (11.6 IBU)
Wyeast 1388 (Belgian Strong Ale)

1. Steep carapils in stock pot @ 66C for 30 minutes in 1l, then rinse. (Cracked grain will be added to the water once it reaches 66C)
2. Add 1.5kg LME to carapils liquid and fill pot to 15l
3. Bring to the boil, add Styrian Goldings@60 minutes
4. Add Saaz@15 minutes
6. Remove from heat and crash cool
7. Whilst wort is cooling add remaining 3kg LME and 0.5kg to fermenter with 2l water.
8. Add cooled wort to fermenter
9. Fill fermenter to 21L
10. Pitch 2l yeast starter
11. Ferment at 19C until steady OG. FG should be around 1.018
12. Rack to secondary and cold condition for 4 weeks at 1C
13. Rack to bootling bucket and bring up to 20C
14. Bulk prime with caster sugar. I see others have mentioned introducing a neutral yeast as well, but not sure if this would be necessary or not.

Theory behind my steps/calcs:
Partial boil will start at 15l and I expect 5l reduction in 60 mins, so for calculating hops utilisation i've used an average wort volume of 12.5l.
The wort will be the carapils liquid and 1.5kg of LME. The wort should have an SG of 1.044 at 12.5l (from what I can tell the hops utilisation at this level is fairly good - making the wort any stronger I'd need to up the hops amounts)
Used the Rager hops formula with a boil volume of 12.5l @ 1.044 to give the above hops amounts/IBU's - i think I've calc'd this correctly.

 

[sinkas]

Duvel is not an easy beer to clone,
the biggest gins are made in the rapid and ever warming fermentation up to around 27-28C over a short period
you dont state your OG

dont worry about this though, do as you have stated and it will be a nice beer anyway.

 

[hosko11]

Sinkas,
Sorry, the anticipated OG will be 1.067 using beersmith or 1.076 using the brewcraft calculator !?

With the rapid and ever warming fermentation how long do you think this should take and would it be from 19C after pitching the yeast? Do you then hold the brew at 27-28C for the remainder of the fermentation or for a period of time then drop it back to 19-20C? I'm keen to get the flavour and aroma profile of duvel so am prepared to muck around with the fermentation temps if necessary.
Cheers.

 

[Dave86]

According to DK's recipe, he holds lets the temp rise to 28 over a week (i've got this on my to brew list). WLP570 is the same as the 1388, so I think this would probably be a good way to go.

Hope this helps

dave

 

[sinkas]

Sinkas,
Sorry, the anticipated OG will be 1.067 using beersmith or 1.076 using the brewcraft calculator !?

With the rapid and ever warming fermentation how long do you think this should take and would it be from 19C after pitching the yeast? Do you then hold the brew at 27-28C for the remainder of the fermentation or for a period of time then drop it back to 19-20C? I'm keen to get the flavour and aroma profile of duvel so am prepared to muck around with the fermentation temps if necessary.
Cheers.

Without doing a very good AG brew I doubt you will get close to the original,
Anyway,
get rid of the dextrose, and use table sugar
youll need a big starter of the 1388,
I start the brew at 16 then upp it 2 degrees per day until at 26-28 and completed, its alsomost impossible that you will get the attenuation required to get the crispness and tartness of Duvel with extract, SO personally, I would just let it sit at 19, and see what it tastes like,

 

[hosko11]

Dave and Sinkas,
Thanks for the info on the gradual temp increase during fermentation. Knowing that extract will be limiting in achieving a close clone of Duvel I'm keen to at least try and get the other aspects such as hopping and fermentation close to what will produce the target result.

Given your comments I'll at least attempt the gradual temp increase from 18C to 27C over 7 days. Please let me know if I'm mistaken about the overall impact the fermentation will have on the end result and that I shouldn't bother.

Any tips on helping the attenuation without an oxygen stone thingy? Just stir the wort like a mad man??

Also, I'll change the dextrose to raw sugar and will boost it to 1kg as the other recipes seem to be higher in sugar when comparing them to what I originally planned. To keep the OG lowish (1.067-1.069) I'll reduce the LME to 4kg.
Thanks for the help.

 

[hosko11]

I brought the ingredients for the recipe I've proposed above and the retailer was concerned about the amount of hops I was using and thought the brew would be over hopped for the style. I based the calcs for the hops on the desired IBU for the brew (with Beersmith), but is it possible the 86g of saaz @ 15mins for aroma may produce a much greater (over powering) aroma than I expect? I've not found info regarding how much aroma or flavour you could expect from the hops, it seems IBU's are the objective method for measuring them. I can imagine it's probably just to hard to quantify.

So what are other peoples experiences with hops? Are there times where you've been targeting an appropriate IBU for a particular style and the hop you used was the right one for the style of beer, but the flavour/aroma was just to over powering (the bitterness was fine)?
Cheers,
Hosko

 

[bconnery]

I brought the ingredients for the recipe I've proposed above and the retailer was concerned about the amount of hops I was using and thought the brew would be over hopped for the style. I based the calcs for the hops on the desired IBU for the brew (with Beersmith), but is it possible the 86g of saaz @ 15mins for aroma may produce a much greater (over powering) aroma than I expect? I've not found info regarding how much aroma or flavour you could expect from the hops, it seems IBU's are the objective method for measuring them. I can imagine it's probably just to hard to quantify.

So what are other peoples experiences with hops? Are there times where you've been targeting an appropriate IBU for a particular style and the hop you used was the right one for the style of beer, but the flavour/aroma was just to over powering (the bitterness was fine)?
Cheers,
Hosko

IBUs only measure bitterness. THe longer you boil, the more bitterness you get so at 15 minutes you need more hops to get less IBUs.
Aroma and flavour are a little difficult to measure.
I'd second a worry about the amount of hops. 86g@15 seems excessive for the style to me.
You won't get much aroma from a 15 minute addition but you will get flavour and I'd recommend dropping that amount back to half that, or less even.
Add some of them a little earlier to get your same IBU level if desired.

That's what I'd do anyway...

 

[pmolou]

hey mate let us know how this goes im thinking of doing a similar brew but a little weaker and all goldings hops
Ps. would this beer have much body (never tasted duvel)

 

[hosko11]

hey mate let us know how this goes im thinking of doing a similar brew but a little weaker and all goldings hops
Ps. would this beer have much body (never tasted duvel)

ha, just came across this old thread linked to a recent one and thought I should provide a somewhat belated update.

Anyhoo, the final recipe ended up being:
4.5kg Thomas Coopers light malt extract (LME)
1.5kg Raw cane sugar (added mid fermentation)
0.25kg Carapils
40g Styrian Goldings pallets - 4.8% @ 60mins
12g Saaz pallets - 4.5% @60mins
28g Saaz pallets - 4.5% @15mins
Wyeast 1388 (Belgian Strong Ale)

It was a partial boil of 15l with 2kg of the LME and the wort from the steeped carapils. Ferment started at 18C, day 2 up'ed to 21C, day four added all the sugar (boiled in 2Ltrs of water), day 5 up'ed to 24C, day 7 back down to 19C, then cold conditioned at 1C for 5 weeks.

Is still by far the tastiest brew I've made, certainly wasn't a duvel clone though, but a very tasty Belgian strong ale. Was to dark in colour, not good enough head retention and the flavour profile was bigger bodied, more caramelly flavours than the real thing and not as dry. Oh, but the alcoholic effect was similar .... a few of these and I wasn't cooking dinner that night. The mates lapped this stuff up, so have just got around to doing a tweaked version which has just been bottled. WIll up date the results in a month or 2.
Cheers,
Hosko