Efficiency Problems. What Am I Doing Wrong?

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jyo

No Chillin' Like a Villain.
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G'day all.
I'm now up to my 9th AG attempt, the last of which was a Hefe (based on Warra48's try again hefe) as follows-

2500 wheat
2500 pils
100 carahell

40 gms tett

3068 yeasties.

I am a three vesseller, esky mash tun, copper slotted manifold, gravity feeder.
I mashed for 90 at 64.5, by the end of the mash, it had dropped 2 degrees.
I hit mash out temp of 74, and i didn't stir or adjust the mash temp during the mash.
I always have a water to grain ratio of between 2.5 and 3 litres.

I only stir vigorously before sparging , (not during the mash) and I sparge/run off at full speed (Have read that this ok with batch sparging?)

With this brew I was a bit pissed, brewing at 11:00 at night, and stuffed up my water volumes, so ended up with 25.5l in the fermenter, instead of the anticipated 22.5, which accounts for some of my efficiency problems.
Before boil was 32 litres.

I measured 1038 in the fermenter, which is very frustrating., still giving off heaps of CO2, and krausen is still about an inch high. 2nd time I have used this yeast. Have been fermenting between 18 and 22' for 7 days now, and I have had 2 days of readings at 1010. Thats about a 4%abv effort (in keg) which is a pretty crappy effort, seeing as I was aiming for around 5.2% ABV.

WTF am I doing wrong?

My previous brews have all been very accurate in terms of water volumes (not brewing pissed), though the highest OG in the fermenter I have recorded has been 1044 (mashed at 66' for 90, same methods as above, US05 yeast) with the following grain bill-

4500 galaxy ale
400 light crystal
300 carapils
23 litres in the fermenter.
brewed out to 1005, about 5.2% ABV, was very happy.

I have held off asking these questions for awhile now, hoping to improve my process through reading etc, but things are slowly going backwards.
My grain has been cracked by 2 major WA grain and homebrew suppliers, the grist is always fully cracked, a nice mix of some flour with husk etc... so I doubt the crack has anything to with it.
Buying a few extra 100 grams of grain to boost things up is no problem, though I would prefer to know where I can improve things in the first place.

Any suggestions on how I can improve would awesome.
Cheers all, John.
 
My grain has been cracked by 2 major WA grain and homebrew suppliers, the grist is always fully cracked, a nice mix of some flour with husk etc... so I doubt the crack has anything to with it.
The first thing I'd check is what efficiencies other customers of the shops get.
In general the crush the most important factor contributing to efficiency.
So try to compare yours with other people who also use the same crush, to see if it is a problem you have, or something that each of the customers have.

After that if required you can then chase the more elusive factors down.
 
The first thing I'd check is what efficiencies other customers of the shops get.
In general the crush the most important factor contributing to efficiency.
So try to compare yours with other people who also use the same crush, to see if it is a problem you have, or something that each of the customers have.

After that if required you can then chase the more elusive factors down.


Cheers, mate, will do.
 
Crush will make a difference, when I went from shop cracked to cracking my own grain my efficiency went up but only by about 7%. The beer you brewed as your 9th attempt would be around 65% efficiency, so room for improvement. you should be able to get at lest 70% - 75%, I have just widened the gap on my mill and get around 82% on my three vessel set up.
The 90 min mash should be getting a few extra percent for you. Try sparging slower and try sparging in two batches. Yeah I know sprarging speed "shouldn't" matter with batch sparging but by slowing the flow you are giving the sugars more time to rinse out of the grain. Do you rake the top of the grain bed? what type of manifold do you use? Yeah I know manifold type "shouldn't" make a difference when batch sparging.

Cheers
Gavo.
 
Mate I calculate that at an efficiency of 61%. If you are getting your grains cracked by a good HB store it shouldn't be the prob but yeah check with other customers.
I would look at your sparging. When I first started full mash brewing I would sparge at full speed and was getting similar efficiency to what you are getting.I have picked up my efficiency to 80% buy doing the following
a. Crushing grain a little finer
b. Slow mash out
c. Having at least 2 sparges run out slowly.
I put the Rambo on low and start heating the kettle after first mash out and the next 2 sparges can take upto 30-60min to get through but I now do 66-70L batches. But Iwould reccomend slowing down the sparge.

Having said this I was making pretty tastey beers with bad efficiency and have had to adjust my recipes a fair bit. When the efficiency went up so did the sweetnees and the bitterness went down.

Cheers Brad
 
i would be looking very closely at the crush. If its a bit course the efficiency will roll off very quickly. I have visited local brewers here who got their grain cracked by the Home Brew Shops and on looking at the grist, i said...... 60 to 65% efficiency? and the answer was....... oh is that my problem...... i thought my system or technique was all wrong!

Shops will tend to grack on the corser side to avaid customers coming back with stories of stuck sparges as everyones setup is different. Lower efficiency also sells more grain, but i doubt thats a contributing factor..... more that a coarse crush will sparge more easily.

another efficiency theif is the sparge speed! When i sparge i let the liquid slowly trickle through for about an hour. Your sparge water is not simply "washing sugars off the grain" Its drawing it out of the grain particles in the mash. It takes time for the sugars to soak out into solution in the water and if you run your sparge through really fast you will miss out on most of the sugars.

Also in the Mash tun, you can get channeling, where all the water will simply take the path of least resistance to the false bottom, usually around the sides of the mash. This will also be a factor if draining or sparging too fast. If you set your outlet tap for a nice slow trickle, the water will be much more likely to seep through the grain bed and extract more sugar.

Have a look at your system, your grist, and your flow speed and see try making one change at a time and measure the results. I use a fine grist with about 50% of the grain as powder of close to it. I drain and sparge slowly and sort of have too as the fine grind probibits fast flows..... its just compacts the grain bed and i get no flow. I typicly get 80 to 85% efficiency..... my record is 91% and thats in the fermenter.

LEt us know how you go.

cheers
 
I do 2 sparges, and sparge at full speed, so this could be the problem. The grain is cracked by 2 very experienced brewers, one of which gets high efficency all the time, so I am pinting at my process.

I leave my mash paddle (brewing spoon) in the mash during sparging, and on the last brew I left the lid open during draining and I did notice while running off that the wort was channelling down where the spoon was hitting the bottom of the tun. I'll take this out next time and slow down my run off.

Manifold is copper:
103_0486.JPG


@ Gavo:
I don't rake the top of the grain bed. When I mash out, I pour in my sparge water for 1st runnings, stir the crap out of it for about 2 minutes, let settle for 10 mins then drain. I then repeat this process for the 2nd run.

Cheers guys, John.
 
Looking at your manifold I would say that you are also getting some channeling down the walls of the Tun. The manifold needs to be well away from the sides of the tun to avoid this. Removing the mash paddle will most likely help to also stop the channeling. The small things often make the biggest difference.

Gavo.
 
I do 2 sparges, and sparge at full speed, so this could be the problem. The grain is cracked by 2 very experienced brewers, one of which gets high efficency all the time, so I am pinting at my process.

I leave my mash paddle (brewing spoon) in the mash during sparging, and on the last brew I left the lid open during draining and I did notice while running off that the wort was channelling down where the spoon was hitting the bottom of the tun. I'll take this out next time and slow down my run off.

Manifold is copper:
View attachment 38205


@ Gavo:
I don't rake the top of the grain bed. When I mash out, I pour in my sparge water for 1st runnings, stir the crap out of it for about 2 minutes, let settle for 10 mins then drain. I then repeat this process for the 2nd run.

Cheers guys, John.


John,
I can't see any problem at all with your method, you will get the sugar extraction when you stir the mash after adding the sparge water, channeling is not an issue in batch sparging and I really dont believe you have to spend 30-60mins draining your sparge water. It may give you a precentage or two but that's it. You get your sugars out of the grain by stiring the mash. You did not say what temp sparge water you are using, I recommend 90C for good efficiency. It could have been some very old stock of grain or even a miscalculation when weighing it out that may be the culprit.

cheers

Browndog
 
Once again, speedy advice. Cheers, fellas.
I will:

1. Take a few cms off my width of my manifold, which I have been meaning to do for awhile.

2. Increase my sparge water temp, I am usually only using 80 plus degree, and sometimes only just hit mash out temps.

3. Sparge slower.

4. Ask about the grist

I'll update this in a couple of weeks.

Big thanks, blokes.

Cheers, John.
 
i didn't stir or adjust the mash temp during the mash.

I only stir vigorously before sparging , (not during the mash)

How well do you stir in the mash at mash in? Are you sure there are no grain balls?


I'm with Browndog. When batch sparging, there's no real issue with channelling and there's no need to change your manifold IMO. A fast run off is fine in my experience and your process with this sounds fine to me. What temp was the mash when you were doing the sparge?
 
Bdog and Stuster are you guys using a pump to recirc during mash? Also if you are giving a good stir between sparging what time are you wiating before drain off. And how is channelling not a problem? And the 30-60 min was related to 66L batch as stated.

Cheers
 
How well do you stir in the mash at mash in? Are you sure there are no grain balls?


I'm with Browndog. When batch sparging, there's no real issue with channelling and there's no need to change your manifold IMO. A fast run off is fine in my experience and your process with this sounds fine to me. What temp was the mash when you were doing the sparge?

Yea, definitely no dough balls, I stir the crappers out of it at mash in.

From memory, sparging was about 72ish, but I didn't write this down, and my memory is retarded from that night. As Browndog has said, my sparge water should be up near 90, as I am only using about 80-85'.

A few things to look at now.

Cheers, john.
 
I've seen yields vary by 20%, (same grain bill and crush different rigs) so I suspect the culprit is going to be method. Among batch spargers the biggest difference usually comes for the stand time between first and second runnings and the temperature at the time of the second runoff. For maximum efficiency this stand can be up to 30 minutes, remembering that the sugars have to migrate out of the bits of malt and go into solution, obviously a finer grind means that the bits are smaller and the sugar extracts faster. Finer means slower runoff so like most things in brewing there's a trade-off.
Hotter sweet water runs off faster and better than it does when cooler, at around 79-80oC we get the fastest runnings without extracting too many tannins

Tony
Shops will tend to grack on the corser side to avaid customers coming back with stories of stuck sparges as everyones setup is different. Lower efficiency also sells more grain, but i doubt thats a contributing factor..... more that a coarse crush will sparge more easily.
You know it never occurred to me to try and reduce a customer's efficiency as a way to make more money, just doing a quick calc* I can make an extra dollar (that's $1.00) if I can push your efficiency down by 12% or even a whole $2 if I can rob you of 21% of your efficiency!

I suppose I should remove the part of my order form that lets everyone choose the grind (specified in mill gap in mm) that best suits their system.

MHB

*Based on 5.76 kg of Australian Pilsner Malt, 80% Brewhouse House Efficiency to yield 22.5 Litres of 1.050 S.G. wort and allowing system losses of 5 Litres and a net profit of $1/Kg
To increase the grain bill by 1 Kg BHE = 68%
To increase the grain bill by 2 Kg BHE = 59%
 
No pump here. I just stir, wait a couple of minutes, then vorlauf a couple of litres to clear.

Channelling is not an issue with batch sparging. Good stirring will mean the sugar in the grains should be mixed through the whole volume of water. Then all the liquid in there drains out so all the sugars are carried out and it doesn't really matter what route they take. Very different with fly sparging of course where the mash it not stirred and so the water has to flow through every section or there will be sugars left behind.
 
G'day John,
I had a problem with my efficency a while ago, but it was the other end of the spectrum - I was getting to high an og than what I was meant to be. I later found out that my cheap ass kitchen scales I used for measuring grain were fairly inaccurate, and I was adding more grain than needed. Not sure what yours are like, but might be worth checking yours. You may always be a little shy on amounts before you start. Sounds like a simple stupid thing, but had me stumped for a few brews. One more thing to add to everyone elses ideas.

GIz.
 
G'day John,
I had a problem with my efficency a while ago, but it was the other end of the spectrum - I was getting to high an og than what I was meant to be. I later found out that my cheap ass kitchen scales I used for measuring grain were fairly inaccurate, and I was adding more grain than needed. Not sure what yours are like, but might be worth checking yours. You may always be a little shy on amounts before you start. Sounds like a simple stupid thing, but had me stumped for a few brews. One more thing to add to everyone elses ideas.

GIz.

Cheers, Giz, but I'm still ordering grain per brew, and have done so from a few different people, have watched the grain being weighed up on commercial digi scales so I think I'm to blame. I think my sparge temps are probably looking at being the biggest issue. Im still going to take off a couple of cm's from my manifold length just to satisfy my curiosity.

Thanks again to all for the help via this thread and P.M.'s.
The people on this site are great to take the time to help others, and it is very much appreciated. :beer:

Cheers, John.
 
You know it never occurred to me to try and reduce a customer's efficiency as a way to make more money, just doing a quick calc* I can make an extra dollar (that's $1.00) if I can push your efficiency down by 12% or even a whole $2 if I can rob you of 21% of your efficiency!

I suppose I should remove the part of my order form that lets everyone choose the grind (specified in mill gap in mm) that best suits their system.

MHB

I will repeat:

Lower efficiency also sells more grain, but i doubt thats a contributing factor..... meaning i doubt any home brew shop owner would do this to make a profit! It was never acusing any HBS's of this.

I actually origionally typed that i wasnt acusing any HBS's of this but figured people would be astute and mature enough to get what i was saying....... I probably didnt write it properly but from a consumers point of view (we are not all retailers) you have to wonder sometimes! It happens in lots in industries and we homebrewers are probably lucky due to the low margains you lot get from the products you sell and the personal relationships that are built with customers.

And i wouldnt know whats on your order forms any more Mark....... but thats your loss!
 
The two things that affect my efficiency the most are sparge temps and grain crush. The next would be accurate volume measurments (and presumably grist measurements). Most of my recipes are designed for 70% and getting within a few points either side of expected is enough for me - it's consistency I'm most interested in although if I were getting lower than 70 I'd probably try and work out why. My manifold is shaped exactly like yours and is reasonably close to the walls. Never known it to be a problem and if it's creating one, it's small enough not to worry me. I'll be making a new manifold soon (upgrading tun to a larger size) so I may make some potential improvements but the old one has served me very well.

I guess try all the above suggestions but do them 1 by 1 to see what difference they make so you can nail it. Start with the easiest first - hotter sparge temps (I normally go about 80 - after mash out that should see a reasonable amount of heat in the tun) and reducing your flow rate. I tend to go slow at the beginning and gradually increase which is as much to do with not splashing as anything else.

The other thing, which I think has been alluded to is allowing the sparge water to sit for a bit to do its work. I work on 10 minute time frames which often ends up being a bit longer. Mash out and leave ten minutes, drain, recirc, drain, add sparge, wait ten, darin, recirc, drain and if I need the extra volume maybe another small sparge (tun is small).

It's mainly about consistency so you can work out your recipes and know what your system and process will provide.

@MHB: I've heard the idea before of grain shops crushing so that poorer efficiency is a result and therefore grain sales increase and it makes me scratch my head. Can't imagine the resulting profits would be huge and pissing customers off is a great way to dent profits in such a niche market. Maybe if you were selling pallet loads of the stuff every day but I doubt any of the grain retailers are.
 
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