Dubbel Question

[The Mad Hopper]

I brewed a Belgian Dubbel yesterday and cubed about 24-25L. After doing a bit of reading around, it seems that the key to Dubbels is the yeast and how you treat it. I have 4 spare 10L cubes (that can double as fermenters) and was thinking of splitting the batch and doing a direct 4 way comparison between wyeast 3787, 3944, 1214 and 3522. If I'm going to do this though I want to make sure I have the fermentation right. I have a setup that allows me to control the temperature quite well, so I was wondering whether someone who has a bit of experience with these can suggest where I start the temperature and when I should change it. Also, do people recommend adding in candi sugar along the way? I overshot my efficiency, so the gravity is already pretty high (1.084) so it wouldn't be necessary from an alcohol perspective, but if the yeast would benefit then I'm happy to do it.

Cheers.

EDIT: Also, can I get away with the same temperature profile for each yeast? I'd really like to do the side-by-side comparison if possible (and it'll save time that way as well!).

 

[MattC]

I am planning a Tripel soon using proculture - 20. I plan on adding a sugar addition at about 3 days after fermentation starts ( may split into 2 additions). If you add the candi sugar with enough sterile water, then you could counteract any increase in alcohol by the extra water. My interpretation is the sugar added during the primary fermentation phase helps the yeast with that little bit of extra simple sugar to revitalise it and thus it gives it more gusto to break down the more complex maltose, resulting in a lower FG, than would have been possible without the late sugar addition.

 

[The Mad Hopper]

My interpretation is the sugar added during the primary fermentation phase helps the yeast with that little bit of extra simple sugar to revitalise it and thus it gives it more gusto to break down the more complex maltose, resulting in a lower FG, than would have been possible without the late sugar addition.

Thanks, I didn't know that. And a good point about being able to counteract the extra sugar with sterile water. I would have pre-dissolved it anyway so I guess it's no extra work. And given that I had a higher than predicted efficiency out of the mash it shouldn't affect the predicted flavour.

I think I'll pitch all four yeasts at 20C and wait until the krausen settles down a bit and then add three lots of 200g dissolved in about 500mL of water each (over the whole batch, so 50g in 125mL per fermenter). With each addition I'll ramp up the temperature by 2C as well as a final ramp of 2C, to hit a final temp of 28C until final gravity is hit. Then I'll drop down for a CC.

It'll be interesting to see the different flavour profiles of the four yeasts with the same malt backbone.

Cheer.

 

[manticle]

My understanding is slightly different to MattC.

As far as I'm aware, if too much sugar is added too early, the yeast may digest that first and lose/slow the ability to digest maltose.

Also adding in too much sugar too quickly (even with temps kept low) can result in fusel/hot alc - this is based on my experience.

I've had a few Belgian attempts with a range of cuccesses (range is woeful to adequate - nothing brilliant yet)

 

[The Mad Hopper]

So would I be better off delaying the sugar additions until gravity hits about 3/4 final and the adding it in to dry it out? Would this also mean it was best to delay the temperature climb?

 

[mje1980]

I've been told to boil some water ( 1litre-1kg ), dissolve sugar, then let cool for a short while, and add while still hot ( when primary is done ) ,so that the solution brings the yeast up to the higher temps needed for the post fermentation. Apparently the yeast goes nuts, with the sugar and warm temp. Never done it but plan to one my first one.

Cheers

 

[manticle]

I'll advise on the sugar addition only - as I said my Belgians are most often wanting. However I have had the hot alc from too much sugar at once and since adding in smaller increments have noticed that problem solved.

Add in in small amounts (say 100 -220g each for a single batch) every few days after primary ferment has wound down. If you want to be super careful, take an SG when you add (and let diffuse) then wait till that's been digested before you add the next.

I'll let someone else advise on temp increase - if hoohaman or swinging beef see this thread, they may be able to advise as both are big fans (and brewers) of Belgian style beers.

Obviously there's others too.

 

[The Mad Hopper]

Thanks for the advice on the sugar Manticle. Given the relatively small split batch size (about 6-6.5L each), I might have to skip the continuos SG readings (can't afford a refractometer right now and a hydrometer will probably take about 100-200mL per reading). However, the yeast should chew through that amount of sugar relatively quickly (especially at those temperatures), so if I split it up to an addition every few days it should be fermented out by the bnext addition.

If someone in the know could offer advice on the temperature then that would be great. I'm more than happy to experiment (and probably will with future batches: split four ways, take one yeast and alter the temperature characteristics), but I do like knowing whether I'm on the right track before I waste a lot of time.

Cheers.

 

[MattC]

As far as I'm aware, if too much sugar is added too early, the yeast may digest that first and lose/slow the ability to digest maltose.

This is spot on manticle, yesterday i did a bit more research for my tripel recipe (2nd belgian by the way, still got my belgian "L" plates on). The yeast actually choose to break down the simple sugars first. As most big belgians require a fair amount of sugar to ensure a high attentuation, the yeast will "chew" on the simple sucrose before starting on the more complex maltose. So if you introduce the sugar along with malt at the start, the yeast may not get through most of the maltose as they "have had their fill" and get lazy. By waiting until towards the end of the primary phase to add the sugar, you ensure the yeast have broken down most of that maltose first, then the simple sugars are not as difficult for them to break down, which results in a higher attenuation.

Manticle, you say u added your sugar in one go, but now add it in increments as you experienced some hot alcohol flavours. Say your recipe requires 1 kg sugar, how are you adding that now? 3 additions of abou 330g each or more?


Sorry Madhopper, not trying to hijack your thread :icon_cheers:

Cheers

 

[manticle]

Last dubbel was maybe 800g in total so 200 to boil then 200g increments every 2 or 3 days after primary wound down.

 

[The Mad Hopper]

Sorry Madhopper, not trying to hijack your thread :icon_cheers:

Hijack away, it's all useful information for my batch at this stage anyway! :icon_cheers:

I added some golden syrup 15 minutes before the end of the boil. Do you think this will be a problem as there will be sucrose in with the maltose to begin with? I would think that the yeast would breakdown the sucrose from the golden syrup, move onto the maltose and as long as I add sugar towards the end it should still increase the attenuation. As long as I pitch a decent sized starter it should work well as the yeast will get a bit of an easy energy boost before having to breakdown the maltose, but they should still have the enzymes needed to breakdown maltose switched on. The only downside I can see from what I've done, is that I might get a little bit of that hot alcohol taste that Manticle was talking about. Any thoughts on that?

 

[MattC]

Hijack away, it's all useful information for my batch at this stage anyway! :icon_cheers:

I added some golden syrup 15 minutes before the end of the boil. Do you think this will be a problem as there will be sucrose in with the maltose to begin with? I would think that the yeast would breakdown the sucrose from the golden syrup, move onto the maltose and as long as I add sugar towards the end it should still increase the attenuation. As long as I pitch a decent sized starter it should work well as the yeast will get a bit of an easy energy boost before having to breakdown the maltose, but they should still have the enzymes needed to breakdown maltose switched on. The only downside I can see from what I've done, is that I might get a little bit of that hot alcohol taste that Manticle was talking about. Any thoughts on that?

I think whether or not you will get hot alcohol flavours will depend on how much golden syrup you added and what temp you are fermenting at. If you say you have already added the syrup, then not much you can do about that now. Your pitching temp could impact on the fusel alcohol production. I found that it is advisable to pitch on the lower end of the yeast temp tolerance and then ramp it up to the higher end over a week (what temp did u pitch at? think u mentioned it but cant remember).
I think once fermentation is well under way, ramping up the temp will have miminal effect. I have read mumerous posts on here of some brewers pitching at low temps and then getting up around mid to high 20's with successful results, however Im not aware of their ingredients or their recipe procedure. having said that, i think you should err on the side of caution and control your temp so it doesnt go above the recommended max for that strain. Also as maticle suggested, divide your remaining sugar additions into 2, 3 or 4 additions which have been dissolved into a thick sugar syrup (boil for 15 min). I think that the more you open the fermenter and add stuff the higher the risk of infection, however if your sanitisation procedures are adequate enough this should be minimised, added to the fact that the closer to the end of primary you add the sugar, the higher the alc % will be + CO2 and hopefully no O2, which means less favourable conditions for beasties.

Yes an appropriate sized starter will help to reduce yeast stress. Go to www.mrmalty.com or www.wyeastlab.com to work out your recoomnded pitching rate.

Cheers