"Dry hopping" with orange peel and coriander

[el-gordo]

Just set up a fairly basic 5 litre American-style wheat beer last night. Given that it's my second time using the recipe, I want to mix it up a little by trying something new by adding some citrus notes to it. I've read that other brewers have had success with "dry hopping" their wheat beers by adding Valencia orange peel and crushed coriander (soaked in a little vodka) to the secondary for a few days. However, I'm a little in the dark as to: A) how much orange peel and coriander to add, and B) roughly how long to leave them in the fermenter to get the right flavour levels. Any recommendations?

 

[mtb]

Got some yanks trying it out in a Belgian Wheat here, but they added it during the boil instead of a dry hop. Maybe you could steep the amounts they used and add to the fermenter that way?

 

[MHB]

Recommendation: - DON'T add Coriander to the fermenter, there are some quite unpleasant alcohol soluble flavours in coriander!
Better as a kettle addition or make a tea and add to taste.

Zest, again traditionally dry Curacao (bitter) orange peel is used, quite a different flavour to Valencia that makes great marmalade jam. Fairly available now days as powder, add with coriander to make a tea or better yet in the kettle. The breweries making these types of beers have done hundreds of batches (likely thousands...) and have probably worked out the best way to use them.
Mark

 

[RelaxedBrewer]

I have dry hopped with orange peel a number of times before. The amount you need depends heavily on the oranges. The stronger smelling orange the less you need.

When making my wit beer I add coriander and orange zest @5min to go in the boil. Then if it is still lacking some citrus I will "dry hop" with some more orange. I just find the best smelling oranges I can at the market and use those. Last time I used the zest of 1 large orange for 2 days and it really lifted the orange zest aroma.

 

[el-gordo]

@mtb Cheers for the link. Sounds like a good stating point.

@MHB Hmmm. Hadn't considered the off flavours from the coriander too carefully. Thanks for the heads up. The tea is a really nice idea.

 

[Killer Brew]

In one of my saisons I add 1g per L of each but with 10 mins to go in the boil

 

[damoninja]

I'm skeptical about adding these things unpasteurised, orange zest is slightly acidic and does have some methanol in it but the very outside ain't exactly sterile.

Coriander even less sterile.

As 'dry' I'd do them in a small amount of water keep at 75C for a few minutes, this won't denature anything in such a short time but will release some of those tasty oils.

I've added orange zest at whirlpool, one of my go to beers... I have a mean peelsner (yes beer puns) I've done a few times and experimented with different zests but the simplest worked the best, 3g/L orange... It seems like a bit but it's ~60 IBU so needs a bit.

With the awesome citrus season we've had here in SA I'm saving every ounce of citrus zest I get from mine and the neighbour's trees... so far got plenty of lemon, navel orange, blood orange and grapefruit. Enough lemon zest and juice frozen to last me til next season...

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

Recommendation: - DON'T add Coriander to the fermenter, there are some quite unpleasant alcohol soluble flavours in coriander!

I take it you don't drink gin then.

 

[sp0rk]

I take it you don't drink gin then.

I've found gins with coriander in the vapor path/in a carter head are nice, when it's macerated they're horrible (to my tastes)
Possible that exposure time has something to do with it

 

[MHB]

I take it you don't drink gin then.

That's just silly, in either of the two traditional ways of making Gin it is only the volatile fractions that carry over in the still. We aren't drinking the marc that had the botanicals infused in it, nor chowing down on herbs... in the basket if making aromatic gin.
And yes I am very partial to Gin, well most of them cant come at the Lavender flavoured ones.
Mark

 

[peteru]

Which reminds me...

How well does juniper in the kettle work for bittering twist?

 

[MHB]

not as well as hops
M

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

there are some quite unpleasant alcohol soluble flavours in coriander!

This statement struck me as odd so I did an experiment, steeping a large amount of coriander in alcohol, about 20% by weight.

So far I can detect no off flavours: it tastes like alcoholic coriander.

I think you have misattributed the formation of off flavours when coriander is present in fermentation: I do not think it is due to the presence of alcohol soluble off flavours, more likely the conversion of precursors, mediated by things like glycosidases from the yeast.

A simple example of the difference is orange juice. Orange juice mixed with vodka is OK, orange juice allowed to ferment usually tastes disgusting.

 

[MHB]

Just repeating something I read attributed to Pierre Celis, when he says not to add coriander to the ferment its something I take on board.
The mechanism might be different, but the outcome is the same - keep it out of the fermenter.

Off flavour is apparently caused by oxidised oils in coriander, use of inferior, aged or European coriander, rather than good Asian stock.
Mark

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

Agreed it's fair advice, it was the mechanism that concerned me.

The solvation spheres in Hansen parameter space for room temperature 5% alcohol and for 100 oC water show considerable overlap due to the increased solvation radius in the second case, so I was struggling to picture a mechanism by which it could occur.

 

[MHB]

Not sure about the mechanism as I said, but oxidised oils can be quite polar, and some are quite a lot more alcohol than water soluble.
Silly bits and pieces in the memory from long ago, looking at the use of linseed oil in old paints.

Clearly if you are using good Indian coriander for your experiment (the sort of thing I would be cooking with) the amount of soluble oxidised oils would be very low.
Sometimes think flavour chemistry has a close relationship to voodoo, or maybe its just extremely complicated.
Mark

 

[Reman]

I would say that the issue is adding /during/ fermentation. Probably a similar process to dry hopping while fermentation is happening where yeast or yeast by-products bind to hop oils to produce new flavour compounds.

As per LBC's experiment I would expect you would be fine to dry "hop" once fermentation is over.