Dry Enzyme life cycle

[Yob]

General Enzyme discussion welcomed but Ive got a specific question,

if I add it to a single batch, is it short life cycle or will it live on like Brett and just keep working?

I want to add it to a batch of RIS as an experiment, but I need to know some parameters of how to manage it if I decide to blend in a barrel or some other such weird ass thing I'm likely/not likely to do...

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

An enzyme is a specific protein* so it is incapable of reproduction. Like other proteins it will be degraded by conditions such as heat, protein binding agents like tannins and polyphenols, proteases, pH, etc etc.

The activity will reduce steadily after you add it to your RIS so it will have a much smaller effect on anything subsequently blended in. After a period of time it will cease to be effective at any appreciable rate. How long this takes depends on the presence of heat, protein binding agents.....





*In the case of most industrial enzymes it is derived from a microorganism (in many cases an Aspergillus spp).

 

[Stouter]

Lyrebird, you make me regret not paying attention during Science lessons.

 

[Yob]

mate.. that was exactly the answer I was looking for.. :icon_cheers:

 

[Yob]

not paying attention during Science lessons.

was it girls/weed/stout? :lol:

no need to answer...

 

[DUANNE]

my experience would suggest that it would probably be better to add it to the mash tun. added to the fermenting beer it can continue to work for weeks on end depending what it has left to work on. i tried it a while back on a light lager at a mates request. hes just starting to get interested in brewing and comes around and helps out on brew days so when i said next beer will be whatever you want ofcourse he said i wanna make a ted type beer. that thing sat in the fermenter for 6 weeks before i thought it had settled down and was ready to bottle for him to take home with him. i was wrong even though i primed on the light side in a month all the bottles were overcarbed to buggery. no off flavours were present well not much flavour at all really but i suspect the enzyme was still plugging away at what tiny bit of sugar was present.

 

[Mardoo]

Would the functioning of the enzyme continue to produce gas? Doesn't the CO2 come from yeast metabolism? I have zero experience with adding enzymes other than in the malt, but will be trying some soon.

 

[Zorco]

my experience would suggest that it would probably be better to add it to the mash tun. added to the fermenting beer it can continue to work for weeks on end depending what it has left to work on. i tried it a while back on a light lager at a mates request. hes just starting to get interested in brewing and comes around and helps out on brew days so when i said next beer will be whatever you want ofcourse he said i wanna make a ted type beer. that thing sat in the fermenter for 6 weeks before i thought it had settled down and was ready to bottle for him to take home with him. i was wrong even though i primed on the light side in a month all the bottles were overcarbed to buggery. no off flavours were present well not much flavour at all really but i suspect the enzyme was still plugging away at what tiny bit of sugar was present.

Could a Brewer rack off the fermented wort (at target FG) and then reheat to deactivate the enzymes without detrimental effects on the final beer?

To qualify 'detrimental':
- will secondary heating change / ruin hop contributions?
- would lacing be impacted?
- if secondary heating is controlled to, say, 71 Celsius, is that low enough to not affect the ethanol in solution?

Other than energy expense, why else is this a bad / good idea?

Cheers,

 

[Killer Brew]

Sounds a lot like pasteurisation, done at around 74 degrees. Major breweries do it. Not so much craft breweries. Stabilises the product and increases shelf life. Impact on flavours...I'm not sure. Bear in mind that multinational breweries use quite different processes and ingredients to us so what might be fine for them may not for us.

 

[MHB]

Some of the commercial dry enzymes don't denature till over 90oC, you would want to be very careful.
Mark

 

[DUANNE]

Would the functioning of the enzyme continue to produce gas? Doesn't the CO2 come from yeast metabolism? I have zero experience with adding enzymes other than in the malt, but will be trying some soon.

its not the enzymes creating co2 rather the yeast being continually fed from what would otherwise been unfermentable sugars.

 

[Mardoo]

Of course! The enzyme just breaks the longer chain sugars. Cheers.

 

[technobabble66]

... that thing sat in the fermenter for 6 weeks before i thought it had settled down and was ready to bottle for him to take home with him. i was wrong even though i primed on the light side in a month all the bottles were overcarbed to buggery. no off flavours were present well not much flavour at all really but i suspect the enzyme was still plugging away at what tiny bit of sugar was present.

FWIW, I've had the same problem several times now. Beer sits in FV at 20-21*C after initial fermentation for 2-4 weeks, flatlined at estimated FG or 1-2 points short. But definitely flatlined for a few weeks.
Primed for low carb, say around 2.1vols co2, all fine for a few months, then gradually become significantly overcarbed.
I don't use enzymes.
So I'd suggest it could be an issue to do with yeast health. Could have something to do with the unfermentables, but I'm guessing it'll be largely down to the health of the yeast.

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

A possible cause of that scenario is the presence of two yeasts: a large population of a yeast which does not use a particular sugar (say maltotriose) and a small population of a yeast which can.

The primary ferment is carried out by the first yeast which leaves a level of maltotriose behind.

When priming sugar (usually glucose) is added, this yeast eats it happily and makes the required level of CO2. The small population of the second yeast may contribute to this but it won't turn the maltotriose transfer system on in the presence of glucose.

When the glucose runs out, the second yeast turns on the maltotriose transfer system and begins to grow, slowly chewing through the remnant maltotriose and producing more CO2 increasing the level to excess.

Please note this is a hypothetical scenario, the problem may be caused by something completely different. Without plating out your ferments it will be hard to tell what's happening.

 

[TheWiggman]

FWIW, I've had the same problem several times now. Beer sits in FV at 20-21*C after initial fermentation for 2-4 weeks, flatlined at estimated FG or 1-2 points short. But definitely flatlined for a few weeks.
Primed for low carb, say around 2.1vols co2, all fine for a few months, then gradually become significantly overcarbed.
I don't use enzymes.
So I'd suggest it could be an issue to do with yeast health. Could have something to do with the unfermentables, but I'm guessing it'll be largely down to the health of the yeast.

Would this be for English yeasts Stu? Some have a habit of working away over time.
How do the big players use drying enzymes? Considering the most popular beers use it (including XXXX Gold) I'd be interested to know how they handle it, because they certainly have no interest in tying up tanks.

 

[technobabble66]

Both UK and U.S. Yeasts. Belgians have been fine so far.

I expected it with the English ones to some extent but they've been a bit OTT. But also had it with US ones.

Wrt LC's comment, I'd thought of that possibility, but given these ones all seem to attenuate just 1-3 extra points irrespective of whether it was initially at 70 or 75% attenuation I wasn't convinced it was simply a second strain in action. Still a solid possibility though!
Getting an O2 option might resolve whether it's lazy yeast or a second sugar gobbler

 

[Danscraftbeer]

Not posting about the life cycle here just that this is the latest thread on using enzyme.
I made a batch of my preferred House Ale. I realise now I used the wrong thermometer to mash that reads 5c lower than true temp. So instead of final gravity = 1.008 It was 1.018. I cant accept that much body sweetness so added the enzyme at recommended dosage and final gravity hit 1.000 ha! Typical.
Maybe I should have used half recommended and maybe landed in-between?
Anyway I know this beer and never imagined this as low FG. Its not bad at all. Actually this is pretty good.
It lower carb? not sure about that but its higher alcohol. Its not thin or astringent IMO. Maybe a dryish aftertaste.
Its less malty smoothness but the flavour is still there. Its crisper and seems higher carbonation.
As for fixes for beers gone wrong I think its more fail IMO. If you don't get it right then you cant fix it but this actually worked OK and now I have a new style option. :beerbang:
Beer finished at 1.000?

 

[MHB]

If you add half as much it will do the same thing, just take twice as long to do it. This can lead to some unforseen results, think bottle bombs.
It is probably (nearly certainly) lower in "Carbs", but not in energy, I'm far from convinced about the whole low carb thing, good marketing spin but that's about all I think.
Mark

 

[Danscraftbeer]

As for my Beersmith software. Finishing lower gravity doesn't seem to lower Calories. Is that the same as carbohydrates?
I get confused, like most the public. Which is why they get away with so much marketing spin in the first place...

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

It will actually be lower in both carbohydrate and energy, just by very different amounts.

Let's say you converted 15 g/l of longer chain carbohydrates to fermentable form and this was in turn converted to 7.25 g/l alcohol + 6.9 g/l CO2*, the carbohydrate would have given you 16.7 kJ / g for a total of 250 kJ / l while the the alcohol will give you 29.3 kJ / g for a total of 213 kJ /l.





*This uses the classic Balling formula, there are more modern updates but it's close enough

 

[Danscraftbeer]

Question on my mind is. Is this style beer less fattening? If so, what about consuming the added enzymes?
Dry beer seems to give me the munchies therefore I may eat more too. Its so confusing.

 

[manticle]

Thinking too much is bad for your heart.
Thinking too little is bad for the brain.

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

The added enzyme is in such a tiny amount that it doesn't make any appreciable difference. You can't count beer as a protein source.

I can't answer for the munchies.

 

[fungrel]

Since this is an enzyme discussion, has anyone heard of or used Acetolactate Decarboxylase (ALDC)?

I have been using a sample i was given in ales for the past 5 months, and i feel like this is the missing link between beers made commercially and those made at home. It's used in a ton of industrial breweries, no labeling is required by breweries that use it and i can now understand exactly why and how big players turn around a batch so fast.

To save anyone Googling, ALDC reduces cold conditioning time by preventing the formation of Diacetyl, by breaking down alpha-acetolactate directly into acetoin. Acetoin has a markedly higher flavour threshold than that of diacetyl. "This enables brewers to shorten, or even bypass, the rate limiting warm maturation (diacetyl rest), and it has no negative impact on flavor, foam stability, or aroma compounds."

You can imagine how this can be used to turn around hoppy beers. I can go from grain to 40 point in 14 days.

I am in discussions with the manufacturer in Australia to put pressure on their supplier here to start selling it in 1L bottles. Currently it is only sold in 25L drums and is used at the rate of 2ml/100L so it is out of reach of home brewers for now.. but i want to change that.

 

[Jack of all biers]

Since this is an enzyme discussion, has anyone heard of or used Acetolactate Decarboxylase (ALDC)?

I have been using a sample i was given in ales for the past 5 months, and i feel like this is the missing link between beers made commercially and those made at home.

So what has been the flavour difference for your beers since using this enzyme. Were you having over the top levels of diacytel in your brews before or is there other differences in the last five months since using it?

 

[MHB]

Since this is an enzyme discussion, has anyone heard of or used Acetolactate Decarboxylase (ALDC)?
Snip
...and i feel like this is the missing link between beers made commercially and those made at home...

I disagree, It isn't all that hard to get from OG to FG in 3-4 days even when brewing Lager at Lager brewing temperatures (and ALDC is made for lager brewing)
It just requires a well made wort, good nutrition including Oxygen and an appropriate yeast pitch.
There is no missing link between home and commercial brewing just between adequate and inadequate brewing practice. No magic bullet, miracle pill, no secret ingredients... just good brewing.

The exception being if you are trying to knock out mega-litres of lowest common denominator beer (megaswill) where taking hours out of a production process means dollars in the bank. Remember the Germans are still making reasonable beer without any enzyme preparations, the Reinheitsgebot doesn't even let them buy CO2 from outside the brewery.
Mark

 

[fungrel]

I disagree, It isn't all that hard to get from OG to FG in 3-4 days even when brewing Lager at Lager brewing temperatures (and ALDC is made for lager brewing)
It just requires a well made wort, good nutrition including Oxygen and an appropriate yeast pitch.
There is no missing link between home and commercial brewing just between adequate and inadequate brewing practice. No magic bullet, miracle pill, no secret ingredients... just good brewing.

The exception being if you are trying to knock out mega-litres of lowest common denominator beer (megaswill) where taking hours out of a production process means dollars in the bank. Remember the Germans are still making reasonable beer without any enzyme preparations, the Reinheitsgebot doesn't even let them buy CO2 from outside the brewery.
Mark

I should've been more specific.

To me, the missing link was how quickly beer can be expedited through the fermentation cycle . I knew that there had to be a specific mechanism for it, and this enzyme is probably one of a handful in use.

In saying that, it's not a magic bullet, and im not claiming it is. It won't make better beer if your fermentation practices are sound. But it does explain how breweries can identify savings in the production cycle.

 

[fungrel]

So what has been the flavour difference for your beers since using this enzyme. Were you having over the top levels of diacytel in your brews before or is there other differences in the last five months since using it?

How quickly the beers mature, how fast they drop clear. I've also noticed that none of my beers have any sort of chill haze, but that could be coincidence.

 

[Coldspace]

I haven't bothered trying enzyme additions like the packets mangrove jacks put out, I adjust mash temps for this anyway, I mashed my latest helles at 64 after the 55 rest instead of previous batch at 66 then finished at 72 then mash out at 77 ,My latest munich helles was a cracker,my extended family just demolished a keg of it today at our Christmas party, and was my fastest and deff one of my best lagers I've done.
Crisp, plenty dry enough, more so than the previous batch at 66. I'll do another at 65 but I like the batch at 64 a lot better, than the 66, crisper and drier, but only diff was it was also onto a big yeast cake, but previous batch had 3 x 3 ltr decanted down starters for 45 ltrs cold pitched.
Mashed and chilled cubes to 10 degrees on a Sunday , siphoned onto a nice Yeastcake of 34/70 I've stored under pressure in my kegmenter from previous batch week before. O2 for 2 mins, seal up, left to rise in pressure, and set temp to 12, was away and cranking along by Monday night at 13 psi, left to Thursday and was done. 1048 down to 1006 , 4 days was surprised myself but was hoping the big yeast cake wouldn't cause any issues with a 1048 beer but even with oxygen it's turned out ******* excellent.shut spunding valve off, let temp goto 16 over 3 days to finish off and let carb level go up.Left to cc for 4 days mainly to drop yeast before filtering, then pressure filtered into 2 cornies mid following week. 11days, and was just yum.
Problem now is I've only got 1 keg left, better get another away this week. Thirsty family over the Christmas period keeping me busy.....

With my gear now I can get excellent lagers from grain to glass in 10-12 days and they are crisp and clean as. Brewtan B into mash at start and end of boil, and filtering obliviously helps.