Drinking my first saison...

[Adr_0]

Saison Dupont. Wow, amazing beer.

Looks great, actually lighter than I thought - I was expecting glowing orange but it's a real straw colour.
Smells floral, citrusy, bit of banana and a little musty.
Taste is great, with a complex bitterness and bit of citrus and banana carry over. Bit spicy/peppery too which is almost a puckering pepperness, and super dry with bitterness and funk that lasts nicely.

Wow, what a beer... I actually expected a bit more fruit in the flavour, but it's dominated by a dry, peppery bitterness. Still, an amazing beer and I can see why people brew them. Does more fruit come through in the homebrewed styles, or is it always just a layer behind the dry, bitter, peppery funk?

I also picked up a couple of bottles of Bocq Saison, 1858 or something. Anyone tried these beers, or other saisons to recommend?

 

[hoppy2B]

Interesting comments. Saison Dupont is supposedly aged warm. From my experience this speeds up the aging.

Where did you buy this beer and does the bottle contain yeast? Big bottle or little bottle?

I've brewed with the Belle Saison yeast but have never tried the commercial stuff, wouldn't mind giving it a go. Belle Saison is very dry and phenolic when fresh.

 

[manticle]

La sirene do a good one and I always enjoyed the one from temple too.
Dupont is the top of the tree though and they have a range of others - biologique is good as are any others from brasserie dupont.
If you enjoy saison dupont and also like duvel, try a trois monts (biere de garde) which sits somewhere in between the two.

 

[Adr_0]

Got it from www.internationalbeershop.com.au. Not sure where they are, but their shipping is essentially "fill a carton for $32" or so and they will ship. The website is a bit weird: you place your order without paying, then they call you in the next day or two and confirm they have the beers, and grab your CC details. And you search by clicking the arrow in the middle of the page... bit hard to find. But, works rather well. Obviously an order is a little pricey if you buy a carton of Belgians... :blink:


The bottles are 330mL, and yeast in the bottle - but just a tiny bit. I would say they have centrifuged and re-seeded with just the right amount. Very high carbonation, mid 3's-4 (volumes) I would say.

Awesome, thanks Manticle, I will check those out. Very big fan of Duvel as you probably knew already.

 

[hoppy2B]

Thanks Adr_0

Dan Murphy has 3 Saisons, and St-Feuillien, the one that took out the world's best Saison in '09 an '10, seems to be unavailable. :unsure:

 

[Tex083]

Saison Dupont is an amazing beer - I believe they use a wyeast yeast but could be wrong.
La Sirene is a cracking saison, one of my Fav's. Bridge Road do a good one.
7 Cent did a 1 off 100% Peated malt Saison was a complex MF and delicious.

I have made a couple and found Wyeast French saison to be my fav. You get a bit more funk the hotter you ferment it, I had mine on a heat pad on 100% was a fast ferment and had good flavour. Mine have been a bit dark and not a crisp, I will add some Dex to the boil to dry out the finish.

 

[Charst]

Bocq Saison, 1858 won a Gold Medal at the '13 AIBA. Lovely Refreshing Saison, quite a strong citrusy coriander note.

You might also find Silly Saison, its a belgian saison but I've always found it to finish way too sweet.

 

[pk.sax]

http://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/739/58235/

De dottignies saison, very nice. That and Dupont.
prickly moses had a nice saison too.

 

[manticle]

Silly saison I find way off the mark.

 

[philmud]

OP asked if home brewed sauson is fruitier than DuPont and I thought d say I have found mine to be. I've primarily used WY3711 which I gather is not the DuPont strain. I've had some excellent stone fruit flavours in my saisons, & I suggest fermenting them warm.

 

[mje1980]

I have a DuPont inspired saison in champagne bottles at the moment. Mashed low and long, upped the Ibus and added gypsum as I wanted it super dry. Used 3724. It's dry and fruity but I'd like to get it even drier. I've got a similar one, with the farmhouse ale yeast ( non funky one ) that seems to be less dry and more fruity. Hope that helps. DuPont is awesome. I like the biologique as well. Love to know how they get them so dry. Mine are 100% pils but I might try adding dextrose to my next one, though it might not be "authentic"

 

[anthonyUK]

Candi sugar I'd guess would be OK especially in a 'style' that is difficult to categorise.
I use a homemade medium-dark candi in mine.

 

[BrosysBrews]

If your looking for a cracker to try angle of zest from edge and Stillwater brewing is amazing, don't think it is bottled but can use now tapped to find it

 

[peas_and_corn]

Beard and Brau do a great saison called Bon Chiens, I recommend you check it out.

 

[DJ_L3ThAL]

Only ever had DuPont and loved it, got a Bridge Rd. Saison in fridge as we speak, as well as their Bier De Garde. Might have to have them this weekend!!!

I've got a vial of Sirene's Saison yeast, can't wait to grow it for one of my own soon

Has anyone had a crack at a "new world Saison"? Or do you think the hoppyness would compete too much with the yeast funk?

 

[philmud]

I did a saison with Nelson to bitter and Summer late in the boil. Worked beautifully! I find summer a fairly low key, but fruity hop that doesn't dominate, so I recommend it for the style. 8 wired do a Nelson saison if you're curious about a commercial version.

 

[mosto]

I've never had a Saison. Pretty much my local Dan's is my only source for anything vaguely different. I have looked for Saisons there but haven't found any yet. I decided I would brew a classic style Saison using the BJCP guidelines as my guide. I used the Danstar Belle Saison yeast, and it finished off at 1.002!!! I've heard you can't have a Saison too dry, so I've got high hopes for this one even though I don't really know what to expect. I've got it cc'ing at the moment and will keg it this weekend. Looking forward to trying in a week or so.

 

[Yeastfridge]

I've late hopped a couple of saisons and really enjoyed fruity/citrusy hops pairing with the Wyeast 3711 yeast. To answer the OPs question, I have found 3711 to give a bit of really nice light pear esters after a bit of ageing. I usually do 1/3 Munich, 1/3 wheat and 1/3 pils or pale and think Munich helps with a bit of perceived fruitiness

 

[indica86]

Has anyone had a crack at a "new world Saison"? Or do you think the hoppyness would compete too much with the yeast funk?

I do regularly. Currently have a Rye Saison late hopped with some US hops and it is very nice, although Belle Saison does tend to impart a very distinctive funk on beer.
Next will be one with repitched Saison Blend - yeast bay - which sampling the first I made with that has much more subtle yeast characteristics.

 

[Adr_0]

Nice, thanks for the feedback guys.

I was looking at something like 85% Belgian pils, 15% Munich II. To be honest, I didn't taste any Munich or Wheat in the DuPont... but I guess that doesn't mean it won't be a delicious saison if it has wheat/munich.

If 3724 stalls, have brewers considered making the sugar addition at this point instead of at the beginning?

 

[mje1980]

I don't, I just warm it up and wait. I've tried wyeast 3725 beire de garde, the wyeast farmhouse ale, wyeast 3711, and belle saison, and while the Belgian saison takes a long time I totally rate it. The others have made great beers, for my preference I like the 3724.


I believe dupont is 100% dingemans pils and a long low rising mash, from 40 something to mash out over 2 hours. I'm going to try one with a bit if dextrose, but I'm only going to use 10% on a 1.045 saison so I'll just add it in the kettle. You could add it when it stalls though, it might help it kick back off.

Add the Munich, but it's such a yeast driven style it won't make much difference I believe. I've added spelt to a few, and even used Maris otter and struggled to pick up the flavour over the yeast character.

 

[tazman1967]

I have a 8 Wired Saison Savin clone in the fermenter atm, I got all the details off their website http://8wired.co.nz/~oowired/our-brews/saison-sauvin-0.
Smells pretty good in the fermenter.
As for an American style saison, I think that it is best to stay away from the "grassy" hops, they clash with the saison esters imho.
I have used.. Centennial, Citra, Chinook, Mosaic, Belma, these are just some of my faves..
Experiment, and see how you go..

 

[pk.sax]

Agree 110% with mje.

It you want saison saison, just pils malt a low dose of styrian goldings and 3724 does a beautiful job. Decoction mashing can help it really dry out to the 1.002 ish range its fabled for. Or just tip in a kilo of sugar in the boil and boil hard.

 

[DJ_L3ThAL]

Agree 110% with mje.

It you want saison saison, just pils malt a low dose of styrian goldings and 3724 does a beautiful job. Decoction mashing can help it really dry out to the 1.002 ish range its fabled for. Or just tip in a kilo of sugar in the boil and boil hard.

Would an appropriately stepped mash achieve same results without the darkening achieved from decoction? As the caramelised flavour from decoction may not be desired?

I double batch now and don't really want to double batch a saison, but to ensure getting max out of a brew day, could a simple pils grist with Styrian be left as one cube for a standard Saison, then the second cube cube hopped as a pale ale/quaffer? Haven't used Styrian before so unsure if used in small quantities how much clash of flavours would be expected if say I cube hopped with citra for the pale ale in large quantities?

 

[mje1980]

Step mash will be fine. Make sure you favour the low 60's rest for attenuation. That'd work well I think. If you were fancy you could separately steep some med crystal ( just a small amount, 100g or so ) then add that to your pale ale cube ( before filling ) for a landlord type dry hoppy pale.

 

[Tahoose]

I am about to do just this;

Simple grist 88 %pils 12% Wheat

65 ltr batch
No kettle additions

cube 1 - cube hoped with galaxy & citra for 23 IBU's
Cube 2 - 20ltrs from kettle + 5 litres from separate mini boil. Mini boil to 30 IBU for saison.
Small Cube- remainder of wort cube hopped with Amarillo, this will get mango extract at some point.

 

[kaiserben]

Below is a little info that some people might find useful.

Michael Jackson wrote this when visiting the Dupont brewery (it seems there are a few typos),

With a matter-of-factness that matched his farmer-like appearance and gait, M. Rosier answered my question about his procedures. Each question was answered, but without much elaboration.
He told me that he used only pale malt in Saison Dupont, that his water was hard, and that the hops were mainly Kent Goldings, with some Hallertaus. He made two additions in the kettle, but no longer dry-hopped. When I first tasted these beers, about 15 years ago, I thought they had even more character, and perhaps that was why.
M. Rosier said that, after primary fermentation, there was a week or two of warm-conditioning in a metal tank. This was followed by centrifuging, re-yea sting (with a different culture), priming, and a good
fortnight of maturation in bottle.

He felt that his beers were best at between three and eight weeks after leaving the brewery, but said some customers preferred them at six months.

Some tasting notes of a few saisons also included in the full article.

Source: http://www.beerhunter.com/documents/19133-000017.html

 

[Adr_0]

Cool.

Drinking the Bocq now. Similar colour, but definitely some wheat malt in this - in the appearance, smell and flavour. Very slightly darker, just bordering on orange but still pale/straw coloured. Smell is almost like a Hoegaarden with orange, lemon, cloves and some wheat. The taste is a lot more subdued and not as dry as the Dupont. It has a very feint funk and balanced bitterness and a nice citrus flavour. This has a lot of Hoegaarden character, with a lot of citrus/wheat flavour and a moderate (not dry) lemon finish with nice hops and a subtle spiciness. Very drinkable.

The Dupont is very assertive, complex, dry and peppery while the Bocq is closer to a Hoegaarden but still with nice lemon, spice and bitterness.

Cool. Saison d'like I do.

EDIT: After a few more sips, the Bocq does have a little funk in the aftertaste. Very drinkable.

 

[anthonyUK]

I had Fantome Printemps Saison last weekend
After the initial lemon freshness there is a smoothness and lightness that is pretty amazing in an 8% beer.
Generally though I found it pretty un-Saison-like but an enjoyable beer nontheless albeit one that cost £8 :huh:

 

[DJ_L3ThAL]

I am about to do just this;

Simple grist 88 %pils 12% Wheat

65 ltr batch
No kettle additions

cube 1 - cube hoped with galaxy & citra for 23 IBU's
Cube 2 - 20ltrs from kettle + 5 litres from separate mini boil. Mini boil to 30 IBU for saison.
Small Cube- remainder of wort cube hopped with Amarillo, this will get mango extract at some point.

Why the 12% wheat? Is that to find a nice medium malt body land between a saison and a pale ale? Would 100% pils result in not enough body for the pale? Have you tried 12% before for a saison and pale or guestimating?

Step mash will be fine. Make sure you favour the low 60's rest for attenuation. That'd work well I think. If you were fancy you could separately steep some med crystal ( just a small amount, 100g or so ) then add that to your pale ale cube ( before filling ) for a landlord type dry hoppy pale.

I've used the Budvar stepped profile twice now first was a budvar lager (still waiting in cube) and second a chestnut pilsner which got down from 1.052 to 1.006 with Nottingham (attempting faux lager for a house beer I can brew quick).

Budvar step profile is 20@50C, 40@60C and 20@70C with a 15 mashout at 78C, so it seems that is a decent profile for a very fermentable wort. Do you think sticking with what I know for this saison/pale ale double batch would be ideal with that Budvar temp step profile, or should the middle rest be a couple degrees higher? I figure the Saison yeast should munch down a bit further and I could use WLP001 or US05 for the pale ale which may not get down as far and if so next time try the med. crystal steeped into cube?