Downgrading to 3V from BIAB tips'n'tricks wanted

[GuyQLD]

Or Upgrading, depends on your fancy I suppose.

Managed to scorch my bag yesterday, bag split and was a bitch to salvage the brew. I'm growing increasingly frustrated about the limitations of BIAB and every time I want to do something that's even slightly more adventurous, it becomes a fairly labour intensive and really, not gaining much reward.

I've read through the Show us your Rig thread, been googling images till my eyes bleed and trying to get my head around 3v.

This is not really a "Should I upgrade" thread, I've pretty much decided that I want to. The question now is how? I've got a few points that I'm still trying to get my head around as well.

So far my equipment list is pretty basic. It consists of one 62L pot and a 3ring gas burner.

I reckon that's pretty much got my Kettle sorted, although I still need to put a tap and a pickup tube in it. But before I part with any hard earned cash I'm wanting to run a few details past people. Ask yourself this, if you had to do it all again, what would you change? That's the sort of info I'm looking for.

So suggestions for the HLT? Personally I'm struggling to go past an electric urn for this part. It just seems like a plug and play solution without going to the effort of trying to maintain temps via gas (difficult enough at the best of times) or doing any home wiring. I could get a sparky mate to help out, but by the time I cost everything, short of getting a really good price on a pot it just seems pretty hard to beat.

For the Mash Tun I'm leaning towards the 36L round coolers with a 12" false bottom. That's as far as I got however, obviously I'll need some other plumbing but no idea what. I assume this sort of setup is going to have a fair amount of deadspace? A concept I'm not really very familiar with coming from BIAB but does sparging method affect this at all? Fly sparging isn't' affected by this is it from what I gather, is that right? I won't ask if that makes it better because we'll never get anywhere if I open that can of worms, but should I be considering my sparging method before I start? Will it have any affect on the design?

My main reasoning behind the cooler approach is that it solves another problem, insulation.

So the next question is, what haven't I thought about? And where should I start?

And is there anyone in my neck of the woods that's willing to let me pop over one brew day to try and get a handle on this? I'm in Salisbury.

 

[Tex083]

Sounds like a great plan.
My HLT is a K-Mart pot with a 2200w element in it. Controlled via STC1000. It would take your sparky mate 25mins to build you one.
My mash tun is a SS pot with insulation. I went this path because I wanted 3 SS pots. I have a HERMS coil and it's controlled via PID. I haven't used a cooler as a mash tun but hear great reviews and if you get sick of it the FB can be used in a pot! And the cooler will keep your beers cool!
Sparging method won't change your 3v but it might change your brew stand. I fly sparge with a 12v pump from gryphon brewing. I didn't want to lift 18L of water to allow gravity sparge.


If you were in Melbourne you could have had a brew with my rig.

 

[manticle]

My HLT is a 40 L aluminium pot (4mm) + over the side element. I rarely use it as my hot water service pumps water out at about 70. There are recommendations not to use HWS water - I don't care and find the brews to be identical to my old place (when I used cold and the HLT). Urn, if it's quality seems like a great, easy solution. What I like about a sepaarate pot is that if the element blew, I could still heat water with a stove or burner.

My mash tun is a 26 L esky, plumbed with ball valve and home made copper manifold. I can easily pump out 40 L of medium gravity or 30+ of higher. I batch sparge because it's easy (fly sparging is not hard either). I'm not sure what you mean by 'fair amount of deadspace' You will have whatever deadspace is left over for the recipe you are making. With 36L tun and 62 L pot you could get 50L or so of preboil wort without risking a boil over (and paying some attention obviously) and have the tun pretty full.

Sounds like you are on the way. Tun vessel and manifold design/false bottom are more important when sonsidering fly sparging - if batching, you don't need to be as concerned. That said, I have fly sparged in mine and hit the same numbers and I'm pretty sure mine isn't perfect.

Mine is rough but serviceable and I've used it for a few years now. Happy to answer any specifics.

As a final - consider and future upgrades so you can buy once, buy right. I have bought bigger eskies and sold them, remaining happy with my batch size and equipment performance but if you think you will ever want to do HERMS or RIMS, get the bits now, make sure they are the quality and type you won't regret.

 

[dicko]

3v systems are great but if not watched carefully you can spend a lot of money and time.
eg pumps valves herms or rims hoses brew stand etc;
Add up your costs to be sure you will not over commit on it.

Did I mention a Braumeister, the advantages of the most tricked up 3v system with the ease and convenience of cleaning and storage of your BIAB gear.

Just food for thought.

 

[MastersBrewery]

OR you could do what Jono and Blichmann did





yeah ya need a pump, and a temp controller, and Blichmann's auto sparge would certainly help

MB

 

[Bribie G]

Just curious as to what frustrates you with BIAB, I find it the perfect method for doing stuff like step mashes, all beer styles up to around 7.5% etc and excellent repeatability of recipes without the expense of buying something more techie like a Braumeister or HERMS (and I've had a couple of HERMS and RIMS guys who have either gone BIAB or said they would have gone BIAB if they had their time over again.

Not preachin, YMMV or whatever the acronym is

Notice I didn't mention award winning recipes h34r: h34r:

 

[goomboogo]

The HLT idea is sound. A 40 litre urn (could go smaller without really affecting your brewday) will do the job. It may not be the cheapest but it is the easiest option. Before having an urn I had a pot with a ball valve and the water was heated using on OTS immersion heater.

The 'Keep Cool' 36 litre round cooler won't fit a 12" round false bottom. I'm not sure about the orange 'gatorade' coolers. The 9" works well and the dead-space is only 400-500 ml. I don't consider that a lot and it's taken into account when doing volume calculations. The insulation works well. I put a piece of alfoil on top of the mash and wrap a towel around the lid join to lessen heat loss. In summer I have close to no temperature loss over a 90 minute mash and winter only sees about 1c loss over an hour and a half.

A pot with a well placed pick-up tube will have minimal dead-space. My 50 litre pot has only 200ml of dead-space.

Some things you may want to consider is how many levels do you want to work on. A 2 tier may involve either moving some water by hand, moving mash tun/kettle or utilising a pump. 3 tiers (once initial water filling is completed) will allow you to go all gravity. Also, I'm speaking from the point of view of a batch sparger. Another consideration that may affect your stand design and equipment needs is chilling method. Are you planning on no-chilling or chilling?

 

[AJ80]

I went the 40L Birko urn as a HLT and wouldn't do it any other way. Would recommend swapping the tap with a ball valve though. As noted above, I use a keg king temp controller to preheat my strike water which saves a bit of time on brew day.

I also went gravity and I'm really happy with this too - horses for courses really, but I find it less complex than having hoses and pumps everywhere and gravity isn't going to fail on me!!

Regarding brew stands, there are some pretty epic steel designs out there, but as I cannot weld, I built myself a 3 tier timber stand. This (to me anyway) seemed cheaper, quicker and easier. With your gas burner, you could build a two tier stand to then gravity feed to your kettle on a separate stand. Sure steel looks amazing, but there's nothing wrong with a bit of wood ;-)

Definitely consider future upgrading plans - I've not gone down the HERMS/RIMS path (yet!!), but I've left room on the brew stand should I want to incorporate this one day.

I use a rectangular Coleman esky as a mash tun (about 50L) and use a bazooka screen as my manifold. Given I only batch sparge, I'm pretty happy with this and I've never had any troubles with stuck sparges. Would recommend if you didn't want to get a false bottom or build a copper manifold yourself.

The one thing I'd change is the heigh between the top and middle tiers on the stand - if I ever want to upgrade my mash tun to a stainless steel pot, I'm kind of stuck!!

Hope this helps mate.

 

[jonnir]

Just curious as to what frustrates you with BIAB, I find it the perfect method for doing stuff like step mashes, all beer styles up to around 7.5% etc and excellent repeatability of recipes without the expense of buying something more techie like a Braumeister or HERMS (and I've had a couple of HERMS and RIMS guys who have either gone BIAB or said they would have gone BIAB if they had their time over again.

Not preachin, YMMV or whatever the acronym is

Notice I didn't mention award winning recipes h34r: h34r:

How do you do step mashing with biab? Decoction or whatever it's called?

 

[JDW81]

How do you do step mashing with biab? Decoction or whatever it's called?

Step mash and decoction aren't the same thing.

A step mash is where you raise the temp of your mash on one (or more) occasions to achieve different results. Easy in BIAB if you use an urn. Most have a cake rack or false bottom under the bag and all you do is turn the urn on, stir constantly and check the temp regularly until you hit your desired temperature.

Decoction is where you boil part of the mash, which you do in a separate pot on a burner/stove for X amount of time (depending on the method you choose i.e. triple, single, Hochkurz etc). You can also add the decoction back into the mash to raise to create a step mash too.

Some say they are a waste of time, other swear by both. Me, I decoct and step mash sometimes and single infuse on others.

JD

 

[mje1980]

I have a very very simple setup, have for the last 10 years. 47 litre esky with home made copper manifold. Double batches up to 6%, single batches up to 9% easily.

HLT is a keggle, with a 2400w oven element ( I think that's what it's from, it's about 250mm long, unfortunately broken at present after 2 years service ). Now using stock pots on the stove while I get a new element. No prob.

Kettle is another keggle fired by 3 ring burner. Could upgrade the burner, but it works so I just keep using it.

Super simple and I step mash most beer with no trouble, 2 steps easy, sometimes 3 steps, without trouble.

My pump is a plastic calibrated bucket, and my temperature control is a mashmaster dial gauge.

It makes beer no problems. Doesn't look flash though.

I'm pretty lazy though. I'd buy a BM if I had the spare cash. One day maybe.

 

[JDW81]

There are some great rigs out there, but it is worth remembering that it's the brewer that makes the beer, not the rig. Simple rigs, using gravity will make beer that is just as good as those flashy electronically controlled systems if you understand basic brewing science and practice.

I've been using a 3v gravity systems for years. My HLT is a 50L keg with an element, MLT a round gatorade esky and my kettle is a stainless stock pot fired with a Mongolian burner. If i'm doing step mashes I pull out my trusty 10L urn and can get 3 steps no worries. I use my outdoor table with 2 old army ammo crates to get my first vessel high enough, sit my HLT on the table and the kettle on the burner stand. It is simple, but very effective (and didn't cost me a bomb)

I can pump out up to 34L batches with no trouble and can easily brew high gravity beers.

This is what the trusty old girl looks like. Please note the milk crates to the left of the picture. No brewing system is complete without milk crates. One is ok, 2 is better. A brew dog also helps.

JD

 

[431neb]

I've not read the whole thread but I get by at present with an (antique) over the side element a three ring burner and two 50 l kegs. One keg is an insulated MLT and the other does the boil. Strike water comes from the HWS and is adjusted with the over the side element. I think I could probably replace the three ring in favour of heat sticks or kettle elements in the BK. I'll do it soon if my current RIMS experiment works - otherwise I'll have to join the legion of HERMs devotees.

JDW81 I can't see your pic. Is that my pop-up blocker or did you FU?

 

[pk.sax]

There is 3v, which was my first system after 4 odd brews ever, built it, cobbled together with what I could get for cheap/free but good fittings etc so no leaks, loss of suction etc. made nice beer. Got rid of it to move house, made another 3v with mostly equipment different people had spare and were selling, hlt, keggle (double) etc. pita, no as efficient as my first properly designed one.

Now, I'm using a 60L pot with a 40L insert basket that keg king sells. It only has holes at the bottom. Use the pump to recirc, chill, transfer. Direct heat to heat up strike water and step up. For sparging I heat up 19L of water on the stove and that's it. Have a 20L urn I scored which will get pressed into this service once I've got a brew shed. A good HLT is really handy for measuring volumes of water into the mash/sparge/kettle for any reason.

Bad - have to have higher grist to water ratio because of wort that's always outside the basket wall. Some temperature maintenance issues because of the two walls and lower thermal mass of aluminium not being a buffer in itself like thick steel is.

I'm planning to build a hermit hx at some point for ramping and maintaining temps. That will nicely sort me out.

So, I plan to keep doing 2V. The convenience of simply lifting out the basket and dumping and hosing out is great. + the aluminium is light to handle. I've already cut it up a little on the rim while moving house but just cosmetic.

 

[JDW81]

Should be there mate it shows up on my browser.

 

[pk.sax]

There are some great rigs out there, but it is worth remembering that it's the brewer that makes the beer, not the rig. Simple rigs, using gravity will make beer that is just as good as those flashy electronically controlled systems if you understand basic brewing science and practice.

I've been using a 3v gravity systems for years. My HLT is a 50L keg with an element, MLT a round gatorade esky and my kettle is a stainless stock pot fired with a Mongolian burner. If i'm doing step mashes I pull out my trusty 10L urn and can get 3 steps no worries. I use my outdoor table with 2 old army ammo crates to get my first vessel high enough, sit my HLT on the table and the kettle on the burner stand. It is simple, but very effective (and didn't cost me a bomb)

I can pump out up to 34L batches with no trouble and can easily brew high gravity beers.

This is what the trusty old girl looks like. Please note the milk crates to the left of the picture. No brewing system is complete without milk crates. One is ok, 2 is better.

JD

I can see the pic.

PS: I've often thought of cable tying milk crates together to make a more solid brew stand on the day, haven't needed to yet.

 

[JDW81]

PS: I've often thought of cable tying milk crates together to make a more solid brew stand on the day, haven't needed to yet.

Live on the edge and leave them un-tied. I used to use milk crates and bricks, but decided to upgrade to rusty ammo crates. The milk crates are just there for their aesthetic effects.

 

[Tex083]

I did have thoughts of doing a 2v BIAB style rig.
Using my mash tun with FB as the "bag" and do a full vol mash.
Mash out and send to the boil kettle.

 

[rehabs_for_quitters]

I have been toying with the brutus 20 type idea, currently I have a 60L recirc BIAB on gas, that way combine them and get 3V or use 2V and BIAB or three BIAB's options are endless and a foot in both camps so no one can be mean about either method

 

[GuyQLD]

Bribie G, on 26 Apr 2014 - 09:49 AM, said:

Just curious as to what frustrates you with BIAB, I find it the perfect method for doing stuff like step mashes, all beer styles up to around 7.5% etc and excellent repeatability of recipes without the expense of buying something more techie like a Braumeister or HERMS (and I've had a couple of HERMS and RIMS guys who have either gone BIAB or said they would have gone BIAB if they had their time over again.

Not preachin, YMMV or whatever the acronym is

Notice I didn't mention award winning recipes h34r: h34r:

Hey Bribie,

To be honest I feel the limitations are the nature of 1 vessel itself. I've done step mashes via multiple infusions or by applying direct heat, I've tried to do bigger beers and I've done dunk sparges, double mashes, all sorts of things. I might as well call my system a bastardised 2v as it is with the amount of mucking around I've done.

Which really is getting beyond where I think BIAB shines.

The frustration probably isn't with BIAB itself. It's still a great method but I feel like it's limiting my ability. Can't really say anything more than that. I could be just coming down with "grass is greener" syndrome.

Needless to say, not sure how I feel about the RIMs or HERMs approaches.

To everyone else.

Size: I think I might be building something bigger than I need - I don't drink all that much, I only need to brew a 20L batch once every 4-6 weeks, based on Manticles response, I feel like I should be building something out of Big W pots.