Diluting At Bottling Time

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RobboMC

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I brew with strong batches to maximise my fermenter throughput, and water down as I bottle.
My question is how to best add the diluting water ( boiled and cooled of course )

I want to introduce as little oxygen back into the beer as possible
and just pouring the extra water into the bottling bucket with the priming solution seems
to me to intruduce aeration.

Should I be an anti-aeration fiend and siphon it in, or prepare it in my mini-mash cooler that
has a tap and tube?

How much water? Sometimes I'm adding 6 litres to 7 litres of 7% wort, so in that section of the bottling
it's approaching 50% of the end product ( this is my mid-abv quaffing beer )
 
Adding the water first along with priming sugar should not present an issue, just ensure the beer is not splashed into the vessel. Then stir away and bottle.

That would be my method under the circumstances.
 
A bit of oxygen in the bottling process is a good thing. That sleepy yeast needs a kick in the pants especially if it's been at 4C for a week and only has a couple of buddies in the bottle and needs to get budding.
 
A bit of oxygen in the bottling process is a good thing. That sleepy yeast needs a kick in the pants especially if it's been at 4C for a week and only has a couple of buddies in the bottle and needs to get budding.


Real brewers the world over go to great lengths to EXCLUDE oxygen (such as double pre evac.) from the bottles. But what would they know, if a mate said so...
read my sig :lol:
 
Real brewers the world over go to great lengths to EXCLUDE oxygen (such as double pre evac.) from the bottles. But what would they know, if a mate said so...
read my sig :lol:

Two words: bottle conditioning. My hypothesis is thus: There is a difference between hypothetical development and developing a hypothetical hypothesis that doesn't consider a hypothetical hippopotamus.
 
A bit of oxygen in the bottling process is a good thing. That sleepy yeast needs a kick in the pants especially if it's been at 4C for a week and only has a couple of buddies in the bottle and needs to get budding.

Nick,

From my understanding, there is more oxygen in the head space than the yeast will consume, so no, additional aeration is not good.

cheers Ross
 
If you are bottling in PETs, when the bottle is filled to the correct level, squeeze it while screwing the cap on, so that the bottle ends up a bit pinched in the middle and no head space. As the secondary fermentation proceeds the bottle will plump up again and resume the normal headspace.

Edit: therefore the headspace will be CO2 not oxygen. The breweries achieve this by using counter pressure bottle fillers.
 
If you are bottling in PETs, when the bottle is filled to the correct level, squeeze it while screwing the cap on, so that the bottle ends up a bit pinched in the middle and no head space. As the secondary fermentation proceeds the bottle will plump up again and resume the normal headspace.

Edit: therefore the headspace will be CO2 not oxygen. The breweries achieve this by using counter pressure bottle fillers.

Great stuff 'BribieG'!!
Additionaly, you may also want to ever so slighly increase priming to compensate for the extra co2 required. Style dependant of course
 
If you are bottling in PETs, when the bottle is filled to the correct level, squeeze it while screwing the cap on, so that the bottle ends up a bit pinched in the middle and no head space. As the secondary fermentation proceeds the bottle will plump up again and resume the normal headspace.

Edit: therefore the headspace will be CO2 not oxygen. The breweries achieve this by using counter pressure bottle fillers.


Off Topic
BTW if you stop pressing the button maybe the cat wont bite - just try it, that all im saying
 
Nick,

From my understanding, there is more oxygen in the head space than the yeast will consume, so no, additional aeration is not good.

cheers Ross

That's my understanding too, Ross. I wasn't meaning for anyone to aerate their beer, just not to worry about a little bit of oxygen.

I've also found that that if you let your bottles sit for a few minutes before capping the "fizz off" from the CO2 aroused by the bottle filling drives out almost all the air in the headspace. This can result in almost zero oxygen in the bottle and struggling yeast.

I'll borrow the DO meter from work and get back with some numbers on the level of oxygen in my bottling process. I hear 10ppm is good for the wort when dumping in the yeast, I wonder what is a desirable level of O2 in the bottle? I suppose it depends on the yeast numbers at bottling...

Tap water is probably < 5ppm (making sure not to use one of those taps with an aerator on the end), so a heavy dilution might present an issue. Boiling and cooling the water might be the best bet.
 
A bit of oxygen in the bottling process is a good thing. That sleepy yeast needs a kick in the pants especially if it's been at 4C for a week and only has a couple of buddies in the bottle and needs to get budding.
You are basing this on what?
Every brewing textbook stresses the importance of the exclusion of O2 at bottling; all recommend sterile de-aired water (in some cases carbonated de-aired water).

Apart from the fact that O2 can act as a free radical and will contribute to staling, one thing you want to avoid is kicking the yeast back into its reproductive phase. Remember that at this point in its life cycle it may not have the energy reserves to shuffle back and forward between reproduction and anaerobic fermentation and could easily stall, leaving you with un or under carbonated beer.
Anyone using town water gets the added advantage that de-airing also removes any Chlorine.

Hell you can buy de-airing plants, specifically designed to make water suitable for beer dilution - but then we are talking about professional brewers - what would they know.

MHB
 
You are basing this on what?
Every brewing textbook stresses the importance of the exclusion of O2 at bottling; all recommend sterile de-aired water (in some cases carbonated de-aired water).

So what's your's based on? It seems I have to reference my understanding but you don't? Pull ya head in.

http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter8-5.html

Sure, leave the air out if filtered, pasteurised and carbonated beer ... but we're bottle conditioning.

From Brewing Science and Practice: 15.2.1: Principles of secondary fermentation

In this process the remaining yeast becomes re-suspended and
there is a small uptake of oxygen, which activates the yeast to start the slow secondary
fermentation. This results in the conversion of many unwanted flavour compounds into
flavourless products (O'Rourke, 2000).


In shorter secondary fermentation regimes yeast activity must be intense to achieve
carbonation, purging of the undesirable volatiles, removal of all residual oxygen and
chemical reduction of many compounds. This leads to immediate improvement of flavour
and aroma and flavour stability.
 
So what's your's based on? It seems I have to reference my understanding but you don't? Pull ya head in.

http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter8-5.html

Sure, leave the air out if filtered, pasteurised and carbonated beer ... but we're bottle conditioning.

From Brewing Science and Practice: 15.2.1: Principles of secondary fermentation

In this process the remaining yeast becomes re-suspended and
there is a small uptake of oxygen, which activates the yeast to start the slow secondary
fermentation. This results in the conversion of many unwanted flavour compounds into
flavourless products (O'Rourke, 2000).


In shorter secondary fermentation regimes yeast activity must be intense to achieve
carbonation, purging of the undesirable volatiles, removal of all residual oxygen and
chemical reduction of many compounds. This leads to immediate improvement of flavour
and aroma and flavour stability.

"Nevertheless it will be stated once again that whilst aeration of the wort at pitching is vital, it is the only time in the entire beer production process that oxygen does not have a harmfull effect" From Wolfgang Kunze, Technology Brewing and malting International eddition Chapter 4

" Wort fermentation in beer production is largely anerobic, but when the yeast is first pitched into the wort, some oxygen MUST be made available to the yeast. Indeed it is now evident that this is the only point in the brewing process where oxygen is beneficial." From, An introduction to Brewing science and technology Series 3 Brewers yeast by Stewart and Russell, The insitute of brewing

" bright beer should have an oxygen content below 0.1ppm and many brewers will insist on sustantially lower levels." From, Beer - Tap in to the art and science by Dr.Charles Bamforth

Principles of brewing science - A serious study of brewing issues.
Dr.George Fix The entire chapter 4 "Oxidation"

It is true that Yeast are able oxygen scavengers and will reduce o2 levels
however your assertion that "A bit of oxygen in the bottling process is a good thing" is not supported, even it seems by your own references - None of which state o2 is a "good thing" or even close to it.
 
So all your references are for bottle conditioned beer? Or megaswill?

It's is quite clear that a bit of oxygen in the bottling process does no harm to the beer and from my reference above is responsible for the initial phase of growth of the yeast in the bottle (especially if the beer is very clear and has a tiny population of yeast). Find me a statement about oxygen and bottle conditioning and you'll change my mind instantly. As it stands, I'm not swayed.

Good work finding all those quotes though (but your job is not done yet) ... and to all those brewers out there who bottle just like I do (introducing small amounts of oxygen by not counter pressure bottling) THROW YOUR SPOILED BEER AWAY! Do it now! :rolleyes:
 
So all your references are for bottle conditioned beer? Or megaswill?

It's is quite clear that a bit of oxygen in the bottling process does no harm to the beer and from my reference above is responsible for the initial phase of growth of the yeast in the bottle (especially if the beer is very clear and has a tiny population of yeast). Find me a statement about oxygen and bottle conditioning and you'll change my mind instantly. As it stands, I'm not swayed.

Good work finding all those quotes though (but your job is not done yet) ... and to all those brewers out there who bottle just like I do (introducing small amounts of oxygen by not counter pressure bottling) THROW YOUR SPOILED BEER AWAY! Do it now! :rolleyes:

Hi Nick JD
No doubt you will find exactly the quote you need to support your opinion, anyone can publish a book on brewing - even you, and many have with next to no brewing ability just look on the side of a can kit.

If you dont mind I'll stick to the PhD's for reference material

It is a potential beer quality issue not a spoilage issue so no need to throw out your brew.
 
Your statement that I quoted contains no reference, instead of getting your dander up, you could have replied to my question with a reference.
Had you chosen to read just a couple of paragraphs further down the page you are now quoting from you would have found this:-

Brewing Science and Practice 15.2.3 Techniques of maturation
Oxygen control
Beers are often required to have flavour and haze (Section 15.3) shelf-lives of up to 52
weeks even when stored under adverse conditions. The deterioration of flavour is dealt
with in Chapter 20. It is vital, in order to ensure flavour stability, that ingress of oxygen is minimized
after anaerobic alcoholic fermentation for the production of brewery

conditioned beers. In cask conditioned beers yeast protects the beer against the adverse
effects of oxygen.

The uptake of oxygen into beer is primarily a function of the difference in partial
pressure between the beer and the gas in contact with it. Minimizing this is the basis of
successful oxygen control. Turbulence during beer movements must be avoided.
(the Bold and Underline are mine).

Then you might have avoided sounding like such a prat

Pyrobrewer has also sited the references I would have chosen, Standards of Brewing (C Bamforth) is a another reference worth exploring, goes as close to making QA palatable as anyone.

Yes all home and most micro brewers will experience some O2 uptake during packaging, everything I have seen says to take every precaution to minimise the introduction of oxygen, luckily as home brewers (rather than mega-swillers) we have yeast to help minimise the effects of O2.
That's a long way from asserting that deliberately introducing O2 is a good thing.

MHB
 
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