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Diacetyl In Hobgoboin....how?

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Rob S

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So I put down Orly's Hobgoblin.

Got the wort down to 17*c and pitched half a litre of Muntons premium gold starter.

It reached fg after 10 days and I kept it in the fermenter at this temp for a further 10 days.

I dropped the temp to 2*c for 10 days and bottled today.

Taste test during bottling was heavy with butterscotch. So disappointing. Had a similar issue with a Newcastle Brown Ale, but it was only slight and i didn't mind the flavour. I didn't really want another 25 tallies of butterscotch though.

I was under the impression diacetyl was an issue mainly for lagers rather than ales, and leaving i fermented out beer for 10 days at ferment temps would be adequate to clean up the brew. Obviously not.

My process was pretty simple, but there must be a cause. Can anyone suggest how thus could have happened?
 

brettprevans

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So I put down Orly's Hobgoblin.

Got the wort down to 17*c and pitched half a litre of Muntons premium gold starter.

It reached fg after 10 days and I kept it in the fermenter at this temp for a further 10 days.

I dropped the temp to 2*c for 10 days and bottled today.

Taste test during bottling was heavy with butterscotch. So disappointing. Had a similar issue with a Newcastle Brown Ale, but it was only slight and i didn't mind the flavour. I didn't really want another 25 tallies of butterscotch though.

I was under the impression diacetyl was an issue mainly for lagers rather than ales, and leaving i fermented out beer for 10 days at ferment temps would be adequate to clean up the brew. Obviously not.

My process was pretty simple, but there must be a cause. Can anyone suggest how thus could have happened?
Yeast underpitching can create diacetyl. Ditch the can yeast and buy some good dey or liquid yeasts. Also aerate ur wort. If it ainr aerated then yeast health is comprimised and thus can effectively underpitching.

Also if ur referancing a recipe it helps to providw a linj so people can review it.
 

Rob S

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It was supposed to have 1187 Ringwood Ale in it but MHB didn't have any so I got three packets of Muntons Premium Gold instead. I made a starter with 500ml of the cooled wort which was going really nicely when I pitched it. Good krausen.

Recipe was

89.5% MO Floor Malted
4% Medium Crystal
4% Cara Pils
2.5% Chocolate Malt

90 minute mash at 67*C

90 minute boil

Fuggles at 60 to 10 IBU
Fuggles at 30 to 8 IBU
Styrian Goldings at 30 to 8.5 IBU

25g each of Fuggles and Styrian Goldings dry hopped
 

manticle

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I may not have the best history with him but if you are a regular customer of MHB and I were you, I would be taking a sample into the shop and asking him.

Not because I think it's his fault but because I think he will be able to help, especially being able to taste the beer and make suggestions as to where it went wrong and how to put it right if there's a way. He's knowledgeable on many fronts.

Diacetyl can be produced by some yeasts more than others and it can also come from infection but ask someone who knows and who is able to taste the beer you are tasting rather than interpret a description.
 

Rob S

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That's probably the best idea Manticle. Never thought of doing that. Cheers!
 

manticle

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Out of interest was there anything the newcastle had in common with the hobgoblin? Yeast, cold side equipment, process?
 

Rob S

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The only things in common between the two are the 90 min mash, 90 minute boil and using Chocolate Malt and Medium Crystal.

Yeast and main malt were different as were the hops - only bittering in the Brown @ 90 mins.

They were done in different fermenting vessels. Other brews done before and after were good.

The process was basically the same. BIAB, glad wrap the pot, put in the fridge, bring out the next morning and leave to get ambiant temp or whatever temp I want to pitch at, pitch yeast, straight into fermenting fridge.
 

Bribie G

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Mark is an encyclopedia on legs, he'll sort you out :icon_cheers:
 

Bribie G

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How long did you let the starter go for?
 

Brewman_

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Rob S.

please forgive y spelling as I have no letter after L in the alphabet on y key board working.

I did the sae recipe and also get all of y stuff fro ark. The beer was great, just a little too sweet for ine but then I had a big iproveent in efficiency which I attribute that too. I used Nottingha dry yeast and would not use that again in this beer.

anticle is right, take it in and get ark and Shaun to to taste and give you soe feed back. The other thing is with new recipes depending on your experience, how they taste and sell ay not always be a good indication for the finished beer.

Not sure why you handled your yeast the way you did, 3 packets would have been fine to pitch straight in.

Bye the way what was your Final Gravity? I also would not be trying to keep the ferent really cool, 22 Deg.C should be fine.

Fear_n_loath
 

Bribie G

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Woolies sell acceptable keyboards for about $15 :rolleyes:
 

Brewman_

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Hey Bribie, I'd pull one out of the bin if I could, it is shitting e big tie! Just started happening and now I sound kind of asian.

I hope the next one last long tie.
 

Bribie G

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Just goes to show how fuckn useless the bottom row of the keyboard actually is - Tony Abbott will fix this for the increased productivity of our great nation :icon_chickcheers:
 

Rob S

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I like using my stir plate - what can I say? I put 2 packets of the yeast in the stir plate with about 100ml of boiled & cooled water and stirred for an hour to rehydrate the yeast, then slowly introduced 500ml of cooled wort. I left this for roughly 12 hours at ambient temps stirring away. It looked good after this.

Fear'n'Loath - that is the funniest post I've seen in a while. I'd like to imagine it's how you talk too :D

FG was 1.010
 

Goose

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I was under the impression diacetyl was an issue mainly for lagers rather than ales, and leaving i fermented out beer for 10 days at ferment temps would be adequate to clean up the brew. Obviously not.

G'day Rob

Oh you can get diacetyl in Ales alright. I hate the stuff, I swear I can detect it at a thousand paces. In my experience, diacetly in ale's is formed when you ferment at too low a temperature. I reckon 17 is a tad low, and 20 is spot on. Check your thermostat too, are you sure you are not at 15 or 16, because that will definitely cause you problems, especially if you have like a 2 degree hysteresis on the controller.

If you'd picked up the diacetyl prior to bottling, you could probably have corrected it by raisng the temperature to 20-22 for a few days to allow the yeast to reabsorb the diacetyl.
 

Rob S

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Too low a temp....well that's new to me. I Googled a bit on the Muntons and it suggested 18*c. Being a fiddle-fucker of course I chose to do something different & ferment at 17.

It has been very cold in the shed hitting 1*c at night but I had a heat belt around the base of the fermenter & the STC probe about halfway up, insulated & pressed hard against the side. Maybe that's where I screwed up. It could have been too hot around the yeast cake. Perhaps the heat belt could have been around the middle & the probe at the bottom for the yeast.

I'm hoping that a few weeks in the bottle will clean it up a bit. Ant thoughts on this?
 

DJR

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The other thing that can help is keeping some yeast in suspension - if the beer has not quite finished but the yeast has flocced out there will be less yeast with surface area to reabsorb and reduce the diacetyl. Ringwood is notorious for this and needs constant rousing but not sure about the Muntons dry yeast. Just a gentle swirl on the fermenter each day after it floccs out to get some back into suspension is useful.


Also you could do the lager brewers D-rest trick next time and raise the temps to 20-22C close to or after fermentation finishes if you are fermenting cool
 

Goose

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It has been very cold in the shed hitting 1*c at night but I had a heat belt around the base of the fermenter & the STC probe about halfway up, insulated & pressed hard against the side. Maybe that's where I screwed up. It could have been too hot around the yeast cake. Perhaps the heat belt could have been around the middle & the probe at the bottom for the yeast.
Ale yeast is a top fermenter for the most and if you are heating from below you probably had a decent thermal current keeping yeast in suspension. You also fermented out fully basis your FG at 1.010 which shows temperature ok to get the yeast working for the most, but again my guess is a final period at 20-22 would finish it. I think if you are bottling and storing at 20-22 then that should also do the trick in time.

Where I am i have the reverse problem, ie too hot so I need to ferment in a fridge. Before I bought an external thermostat I just threw it in a wine fridge which the max setting was 18 deg C. My ales were full of diacetyl. Turned out the thermostat for whatever reason was cactus and I was actually fermenting at 16 deg C. A 'rest" later did fix the problem, but have since gotten my hand on a temperature controller and insert the thermocouple into the beer itself for better accuracy.
 

Rob S

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Ok Goose, so your diacetyl issue was because the temp was too low. Similar to what was said above. I'll have to look closer at what temp I do my ales at from now on. Thing is I Googled Muntons and it said 18*c. I will have to do another ale batch brewed at higher temps as i really don't want another butterscotch ale.
 

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