Designing a Kilkenny Clone Extract

[PhilipB]

Hi Guys and Gals,

I am researching the making of a Kilkenny clone extract brew. I like Kilkenny

I did a bit of googling around and found a reference in 'The Home Brewer's recipe handbook' for Kilkenny stating:

'Smithwick's Ale / Kilkenny Irish Beer : ABV 4% or 5% Malt: Pale Malt, Roast Barley, Maltose syrup. Hops: Goldings, Challenger, Target, Northdown'\
' Kilkenny Ale OG 1052. Malt: 91% Pale malt, 9% Crystal Malt. Hops: Fuggles, Goldings, Northdown, Northern Brewer. IBU: 33 EBC:30'

Wikipedia references that Kilkenny has an EBU of 29 and an ABV of 4.3%

I found anecdotal information that said the EBC should be 27.

I also identified that it should not be over carbonated and is a Red Irish Ale and it is gassed CO2 and Nitrogen. The nitrogen creates that creamy feel.

Other recipes that I identified, along with comments mentioned the importance of Barley for colouration.

My extracts are boiled in a 10 litre pot.

I set about using BeerSmith 2 and came up with the following recipe and would love to hear your thoughts.

1.5 KG Light Dry Extract (15.8 EBC) (39.5% IBU)
1.5 KG Amber Liquid extract (24.6 EBC) (39.5% IBU)
100GM Caramel / Crystal Malt 10L (19.7 EBC) (2.6% IBU)
130GM Roasted Barley (591 EBC) (3.4% IBU)
200GM Flaked Barley (3.3 EBC) (5.2% IBU)
300GM Maltodextrin (5.9 EBC) (7.8% IBU)
100GM Table Sugar (2.0 EBC) (2.6% IBU)
25GM Northdown hops @ 30 minutes (10 IBUs)
20GM Target hops @ 25 minutes (9.4 IBUs)
20GM East Kent Goldings (EKG) hops @ 25 minutes (5 IBUs)
20GM Challenger hops @ 15 Minutes (4.6 IBUs)
1 tsp Irish Moss (fining) @ 10 minutes

Yeast: Wyeast Labs 1084

IBU 29
EBC 27

Est OG 1.046
Est FG 1.015
Est ABV 4.3%

Steeping temp 68 degrees 30 minutes

23 litre Ferment size.

I am still researching and need to make sure I can get all these ingredients.

Appreciate your thoughts on this esp if you have brewed a Kilkenny / Smithwicks Irish red Ale before.

 

[PhilipB]

Any one have any thoughts on this ?

 

[fishingbrad]

I brew the Better red than dead in the recipe DB (all grain I know). I feel this is better the Kilkenny.

from experience I would drop the roast down to half. try and stick with only 2 hops; EKG & Fuggels. you got the right yeast. brew @ 18c. try it and report back. love a good Irish red.

 

[PhilipB]

Thanks Brad. Still tweeking things but it's the the next brew I am doing

 

[Fatgodzilla]

Had a look at your recipe, just my thoughts. The roast barley is really only for colour, so steep it in cool to warm water (not boiling) overnight to extract the colours but leave any bitterness/ harshness behind.

Hoping the amber malt and crystal in conjunction with the roast barley doesn't make this too dark.

Hop looks okay, because you want this is to be a malt driven beer. But worried that what you have will be a bit too bitter. Interesting to see.

Assume only a half hour boil?

All other stuff looks spot on.

When I was developing the all grain Better Red Than Dead I made about half a dozen variations before I stuck with the final product. Hopefully you'll wont need as many does. Keep us informed.


ps I found this beer needed a bit of sitting time to develop after it finished fermenting. But was worth waiting for. Best of luck.

 

[PhilipB]

Had a look at your recipe, just my thoughts. The roast barley is really only for colour, so steep it in cool to warm water (not boiling) overnight to extract the colours but leave any bitterness/ harshness behind.

Hoping the amber malt and crystal in conjunction with the roast barley doesn't make this too dark.

Hop looks okay, because you want this is to be a malt driven beer. But worried that what you have will be a bit too bitter. Interesting to see.

Assume only a half hour boil?

All other stuff looks spot on.

When I was developing the all grain Better Red Than Dead I made about half a dozen variations before I stuck with the final product. Hopefully you'll wont need as many does. Keep us informed.


ps I found this beer needed a bit of sitting time to develop after it finished fermenting. But was worth waiting for. Best of luck.

Thank you so much

With boil time, I was thinking 60 minutes and then crashing the temperature.

Thank you for the tip with the roast barley.

All my timings are generated from Brewmaster2 to keep to the overall EBC and IBU requirements I have set.

Understandably it's a computer program and will always be outsmarted by taste!

I will be looking to bulk prime using a secondary fermenter and bottling. I normally leave my brews 3 - 6 months before cracking open.

 

[Fatgodzilla]

if boiling for 60 minutes, look at adding hops at first boil. 10-15g of the Northdown will supply a fair bitterness over 60 minutes. See what your beer calculator says for this. As said before, looks like a lot of hops for this style of beer. You need balance, but also a malt forward brew.

Actually looking at the hops, my first thought is a nice English bitter/ IPA.

Brew this recipe anyway and keep us informed.

Suggest you drink a bottle of this (assume you are bottling) every fortnight or so just to see how it develops.

PS don't trust idiots like myself. Brew, keep good notes, share your beer with brewers (mates cant be trusted), listen to their comments, be prepared for both good and bad reactions, trust your judgment and change your recipe or techniques if you think you can improve the brew. And if it tastes like shit, chuck it out, tell nobody. (Done that a few times, trust me on that).

:beerbang:

 

[Bribie G]

If you are looking to emulate the Commercial Kilkenny I'd just use a bittering hop such as Target. AFAIK Guinness just use hop extra in their mainstream beers although they have branched out recently with a few craftwashed brews according to the Pommy forums, but that's a different story.

Edit, not wishing to rain on parades but the concept of Irish Red is really a marketing tool of the last few decades. Beers such as Smithwicks, Kilkenny etc are just English bitter styles transplanted to Ireland and not very good ones either. That's why stouts and whiskeys hold sway there.

 

[Jack of all biers]

I reckon I have a published recipe for this one at home (might be just AG but I'll check) and get back to you this evening.

 

[PhilipB]

I am taking on board all the suggestions and will spend some time this weekend tweeking the recipe.

I really appreciate the input.

At the end of the day I think this will be a case of brewing a batch, performing comparisons and adjusting accordingly

Will be a few weeks before I can get this one on the brew due to work and space at home.

I will be posting pictures as I go

 

[Gigantorus]

Phil,

That looks more like a partial-mash recipe and you may need that bigger boiler pot for the approx. 3.5kg of grain.

Apart from that looks good.

Cheers,

Pete

 

[Droopy Brew]

There is only 400g or so of grains in there Pete. 3kg of liquid.

Eitherway, I would replace the Amber liquid with pale, knock the RB and Crystal 10 on the head and use as much Caraaroma as you need to get your colour. It adds a very nice red hue, beautiful taste and you wont need a lot. I love the stuff. Just an option anyway- will probably turn out better than the original.

 

[Bribie G]

I was going to post just that, DB got in first.

I love a proper red beer (for example Cameron's Strongarm from County Durham, the red that Irish Red only thinks it is)



Whilst a lot of brewers will say "nah, just use Roast Barley", the use of Caraaroma will not only give you more red than the KGB but will also give a luscious caramelly smoothness.

 

[PhilipB]

There is only 400g or so of grains in there Pete. 3kg of liquid.

Eitherway, I would replace the Amber liquid with pale, knock the RB and Crystal 10 on the head and use as much Caraaroma as you need to get your colour. It adds a very nice red hue, beautiful taste and you wont need a lot. I love the stuff. Just an option anyway- will probably turn out better than the original.

I was going to post just that, DB got in first.

I love a proper red beer (for example Cameron's Strongarm from County Durham, the red that Irish Red only thinks it is)

redder.jpg

Whilst a lot of brewers will say "nah, just use Roast Barley", the use of Caraaroma will not only give you more red than the KGB but will also give a luscious caramelly smoothness.

Seems like the options are there...

Does the barley assist with the flavoring or just the color?

 

[Bribie G]

The RB gives a bit of a toasty flavour as well but I wouldn't say that's a characteristic of Kilkenny.
On the other hand, Guinness is made with a base "pale" beer and an extract of roast barley and other stuff is injected into the brew prior to fermentation. This Guinness "syrup" is made in Dublin and shipped to all the Guinness overseas producers such as Lion in Australia, and is a bit of a "black box" item. It's always possible that Kilkenny gets a smaller shot of the elixir, but that's just speculation.

 

[Jack of all biers]

Sorry, got busy last night. The recipe I have has not been tried by me, but is from the same book that Les (of the wheat family) got his Schneider Weisse recipe, Graham Wheeler's - Brew Classic European Beers at Home. I have tried many recipe's from this book and not one has been a bad representation of the commercial variety.

Malt Extract version;
23L @ OG 1048 or 11.9 Plato
3.45 kg liquid pale malt extract (3.5 kg is a nice round figure though. You could also convert this to Dried malt extract weight [calculations out there somewhere])
455 gm Crystal malt cold or hot steeped as per you preference. (Wheeler doesn't specify which crystal, but I'd use medium crystal or as suggested change this to cararoma which is a good one).

Challenger hops 25gm @ 90 min (or 60 min if you prefer as you won't gain much from the extra 30 min boil for an extract brew)
Northdown hops 25gm @ 90 min (as per above)
Fuggle hops 10gm @15 min
Golding hops 10gm @ 5 min (you can use both Fuggles or EKG or just one of the two for these last two hop additions as per your preference, but I'm just puting the recipe as written).

Yeast as per your preference in a good quality Ale yeast. (1084 as you've suggested would be good)

~FG 1011 or 2.8 Plato
~IBU 33
~EBC 30
~ABV 4.9%

Note: Obviously the recipe is written for specific Hop A/A% so you should adjust the amounts for the recipe 33 IBU (or within a few points).

Use or change as per all the advise from those above until it tastes the real deal to you. That's the beauty of home brew :drinks:
Just make sure you use a good quality malt extract! but I'm probably telling you how to suck eggs..... so edit over

 

[PhilipB]

The RB gives a bit of a toasty flavour as well but I wouldn't say that's a characteristic of Kilkenny.
On the other hand, Guinness is made with a base "pale" beer and an extract of roast barley and other stuff is injected into the brew prior to fermentation. This Guinness "syrup" is made in Dublin and shipped to all the Guinness overseas producers such as Lion in Australia, and is a bit of a "black box" item. It's always possible that Kilkenny gets a smaller shot of the elixir, but that's just speculation.

Thank you Bribie G.

I might get a 6 pack of Kilkenny to do the comparisons with at home after I have brewed!

 

[PhilipB]

Sorry, got busy last night. The recipe I have has not been tried by me, but is from the same book that Les (of the wheat family) got his Schneider Weisse recipe, Graham Wheeler's - Brew Classic European Beers at Home. I have tried many recipe's from this book and not one has been a bad representation of the commercial variety.

Malt Extract version;
23L @ OG 1048 or 11.9 Plato
3.45 kg liquid pale malt extract (3.5 kg is a nice round figure though. You could also convert this to Dried malt extract weight [calculations out there somewhere])
455 gm Crystal malt cold or hot steeped as per you preference. (Wheeler doesn't specify which crystal, but I'd use medium crystal or as suggested change this to cararoma which is a good one).

Challenger hops 25gm @ 90 min (or 60 min if you prefer as you won't gain much from the extra 30 min boil for an extract brew)
Northdown hops 25gm @ 90 min (as per above)
Fuggle hops 10gm @15 min
Golding hops 10gm @ 5 min (you can use both Fuggles or EKG or just one of the two for these last two hop additions as per your preference, but I'm just puting the recipe as written).

Yeast as per your preference in a good quality Ale yeast. (1084 as you've suggested would be good)

~FG 1011 or 2.8 Plato
~IBU 33
~EBC 30
~ABV 4.9%

Note: Obviously the recipe is written for specific Hop A/A% so you should adjust the amounts for the recipe 33 IBU (or within a few points).

Use or change as per all the advise from those above until it tastes the real deal to you. That's the beauty of home brew :drinks:
Just make sure you use a good quality malt extract! but I'm probably telling you how to suck eggs..... so edit over

Thank you Jack.

Looks like I might have to brew a few different versions and compare!

I think the next step for me is to finalize a recipe, brew it and compare.

Will up date this post with progress and welcome any other thoughts.

Thank you so much everyone

 

[PhilipB]

Hi guys and gals,

Still tweeking my recipe.

I have a question about the flaked barley.

Does it need to be mashed or can I simply steep it with the rest on my grain?

 

[Jack of all biers]

Mashed