Crystal vs. Cara malts

[Doctormcbrewdle]

Ok, I'm seeing many big name boutique pale ale's employing both 'crystal' (by which we assume medium) and cara malts.

Now, if cara is just a light crystal, why would we bother using both to achieve the same result? For instance, if we're looking to achieve an srm of x value we add x amount crystal 60 to achieve that result. Or, we could add roughly 2-3 time the amount of light crystal. I don't really think taste will be too distinguishable between the two personally but am I wrong? Cara is a very bland malt used in small amounts, so much so that I find it pretty well useless in amounts under around 8% of the grain bill

I do understand the darker roast malt will give a much different flavour but not too sure on these lighter types. What are your thoughts and experiences

Cheers

 

[manticle]

Caramalt, cara pils, cara red, cara aroma, cara munich, caramunich ii........ All very different from one another. Even medium crystal differs significantly between brands, dark crystals even more so.

 

[Yuz]

Aren't these are American style crystals and traditional European styles?
I've just started using grains for steeping, so once I figure out what's what I can try partial mashing

 

[manticle]

American, English, German, Belgian.....

 

[Bribie G]

The cara range are mostly from Weyermann in Bamberg and I guess they have the trademarks. For example very similar products such as Dingemans Special B don't bear the cara prefix.

As Manticle says, horses for courses. I use a range of caras for various purposes.

For example Carapils to imrove body and head retention and give a nice light biscuit flavour. Caraaroma for a deep red and toffee overtones. Carafa II for darkening without roastiness etc. For UK ales I use Thomas Fawcett or Bairds or Simpsons crystals in various forms.

All these products are made by slowly heating the whole germinated malt grains so that they literally mash themselves within the husks, then kilned to various colours. As opposed to other dark grains that are just toasted and roasted, like Dark Wheat or Roast Barley.

It's a jungle out there.

Another advantage of Caras and Crystals is that generally if used in a mash they don't break down further into simpler sugars so recipes can be designed in the knowledge of exactly what the grain is going to give you. For example Carapils can be used up to 40% of the mash to make a mid strength beer. (that's from Thomas Weyermann himself.. a few gasps around the audience at that one )

 

[MHB]

All the crystal/cara malts have a lot in common, being that they are mashed inside the grain, then roasted progressivity hotter/longer to make progressively darker malt. As they get darker the flavours change from more like base malt in the case of the palest like CaraPillis/Carafoam, to darker and more intense toffee and caramel in the middle colour products, to plumb pudding at the darkest.
Just substituting more light for a given amount of dark can give you the same colour (probably not the same hue), but can taste surprisingly different.
When you are looking at say an Australian, American, Kiwi, UK, German... Cara/crystal that is of similar colour the flavours are going closer, so trading one for another will have a lot less impact.
We can use the same equation to get the right amount as we would if we were changing hops (g Old Alpha*AA%)/new AA% = g New Alpha
If my recipe called for 25g of 9.5% POR, it isn't available and I have to use Super Prides at 12.5%; (25*9.5)/12.5=19g to get the same bitterness.
With malt its mass*colour; 250g of 120 EBC crystal being replaced with 85EBC crystal; (250*120)/85=353g.

There is one more trap for new players, there are some "toasted" malts that are sometimes called Caramel Malts, UK Amber and Brown being good examples of the style, if not the name. Calling non crystal malt Cara or Caramel is largely going out of fashion (to save confusion) but just incase, double check if its an old recipe.
Mark

 

[Adr_0]

Ok, I'm seeing many big name boutique pale ale's employing both 'crystal' (by which we assume medium) and cara malts.

Now, if cara is just a light crystal, why would we bother using both to achieve the same result? For instance, if we're looking to achieve an srm of x value we add x amount crystal 60 to achieve that result. Or, we could add roughly 2-3 time the amount of light crystal. I don't really think taste will be too distinguishable between the two personally but am I wrong? Cara is a very bland malt used in small amounts, so much so that I find it pretty well useless in amounts under around 8% of the grain bill

I do understand the darker roast malt will give a much different flavour but not too sure on these lighter types. What are your thoughts and experiences

Cheers

Are you specifically talking about Joe White caramalt?

 

[Doctormcbrewdle]

Are you specifically talking about Joe White caramalt?

Why Yes. Yes I am

 

[Doctormcbrewdle]

Thanks for the info guys. May I also ask: are crystal and cara malts as fermentable as base malt? I see Beersmith II is calculating it as such. Just want to be sure. I'm using a whopping 35% in ny bext brew(!) And at a total of 5kg total grain (includes 3 kg pale malt) I'm getting figures of about standard 1.047 brew. Is this really correct?

I'm attempting to follow the ebc calculation of a Pirate Life pale ale in case you're wondering. Which looks to be about same lovibond as a Fat Yak. They're very dark 'pale' ale's and both very big on mouthfeel and sweet character. All recipes in attempt to clone these have been way off on both hop amounts and grain bill to the point you say 'what were you thinking!?'

Also. What (really) is the difference between say a cara aroma, cara malt, cara foam etc. If they're all the same base malt grain just toasted to different hues then there's alot of clever marketing involved, right?

 

[manticle]

Not nearly as fermentable and I question why you want to use 35%.

 

[Doctormcbrewdle]

Not nearly as fermentable and I question why you want to use 35%.

Thanks. Are you possibly able to offer any guidance as to what percentage differance we're talking here in regards to fermentability? I'm trying to adjust the recipe accordingly

 

[manticle]

And no - way more than marketing. Taste simpsons heritage crystal, weyerman caramunich (i, ii and iii) gladfields light and dingemans spec b. Even base malts with the same descriptor (pils, vienna, etc) differ markedly between maltsers.

All ale yeast strains are the same species

 

[manticle]

Thanks. Are you possibly able to offer any guidance as to what percentage differance we're talking here in regards to fermentability? I'm trying to adjust the recipe accordingly

It really depends on recipe, desired results and crystal type.

General light/medium crystal in apa or uk bitter might be 5-10%. Some caras might ve a bit more, some way less.

It's a bit like asking how much salt should you use on your pork - what salt, what cut, what result (cured, preserved, fresh roasted, crackling......)

Sorry - reread the above. Difference in fermentability as opposed to difference in recommended percentage.

Crystal malts (and the caras that are crystals) have been malted in a way that converts their starches to mostly dextrins. Dextrins are sugar chains which are longer, a bit sweet (not stupidly so) and add body.

If you mash a small amount with a base that has surplus diastatic power (crystals have none), you may continue that conversion from dextrins but increase the crystal to high proportions and it's unlikely.

Crystal is generally used to balance body and sweetness.

I don't have figures for the fermentable extract potential for each different type but they'll be available if you want to search.

 

[Doctormcbrewdle]

Thanks mate. I'm just bored half to death of the standard 5% crystal apa. It's barely detectable and I just really love a good, chewy malt backbone. Looking for something drastically different than the standard pale's I've been churning out. They all taste the same, even with different hop schedules and amounts

I was reading an article where someone did an experimental brew using 90% crystal and it turned out actually alot better than expected so 35% is probably somewhere near par to an ESB or similar. Nothing too outrageous really, just not as common

I'm wondering, is anyone able to let me know how much additional pale base malt I should add to compensate for the crystal in terms of og? I'm looking for 1.050 in a standard 23l batch

 

[manticle]

By all means have a crack if you've read and have an idea of what you're looking for and an acceptance it may not work.

Additionally, I can understand being bored of pale but try brewing alt, wit, dunkel, gose, baltic, stout, lambic, dubbel, brown, pils, etc. That's where an awful lot of the variety is.

 

[manticle]

And to answer your question above - I might be misunderstanding but to hit the fg you want by increasing the base obviously reduces the crystal percentage. So just reduce the crystal percentage.

Or brew but add another fermentable like sugar to up og without changing the balance between pale and crystal (still alters beer balance but maybe in your favour).

Alternatively, make the base a malt very high in diastatic power - some pils malts might suit, then mash long and low.

 

[Doctormcbrewdle]

Thanks. Just found a good little article on fermentability of crystal. It sure is a misunderstood grain online I must say. Will let you know how it turns out for sure! Scheduled bottling tomorrow and probably brew this one up the following day

 

[Rocker1986]

It'll give a similar OG but it won't ferment out to as low an FG. 35% is a shitload though!

 

[manticle]

Have you got a link to that article? Wouldn't mind reading the entire thing. Yes beer chemistry, including the behaviour of crystal in a mash, is often over simplified and simplifications get perpetuated.

 

[Doctormcbrewdle]

Sure. Here it is
www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=9465.0

 

[Doctormcbrewdle]

Sorry guys. I made a small miscalculation. I'm using 700g cara and 700g medium crystal so the 35% becomes more something like 22% because cara is so light. Keep you posted on the outcome anyway

 

[Doctormcbrewdle]

Aha. Now I'm getting it. Just half way through bottling this latest brew which is a hoppy pale, mostly pale malt with 700g cara malt to an og of 1.047 and the TASTE is there. That beautiful caramelly chewiness. Nice. The colour however is a pretty boring brown/murky gold. Pretty uninspiring

I'm going to guess for now that the 700g additional medium crystal on top of the 700g cara next batch will bring the deep amber colour and some thick, almost roasty flavours. So looking forward to it!

 

[Doctormcbrewdle]

Mine

 

[Doctormcbrewdle]

My aspiration (Pirate Life pale ale)

 

[MHB]

You could get darker than that with a 5% addition of a dark crystal, I really think your crystal additions should be less than 10% and less than 5% in most beers, but its your beer not mine...
If you find the beer too sweet, you will know for next time.
Mark

 

[Jack of all biers]

Mine

Mate, some of the light colour you have in your bottle is from the yeast in suspension, which is predominantly white/cream colour. Not that the beer will darken once the yeast settles out, but it can be a bit of an optical illusion with the white particles floating about.

Totally agree with MHB re the % of crystal malts. I will add that you have not stated what base malts you are using? Remember it's not all about the speciality malts and some base malts will add a nice colour without any speciality malts at all. For example if you used Vienna, you would need to tone back the amount or colour of the crystal (if you were only looking at the colour of the beer). If you can't get the caramel chewiness or colour you want without going over 10% crystal/caramalt, I'd suggest you try some different brands or types of malts to see if other Maltsters produce a malt more to your flavour. eg if you use Pilsner malt, try some Maris Otter as your base. You'll get a darker colour and more malty profile.

 

[Doctormcbrewdle]

Thanks for the advice fellas. It states on a Pirate life can 'ale malt, cara malt, crystal malt' that's what I'm using to achieve the same lovibond. Like I said, I'll keep you posted

I've received plenty of bad advice about brewing from all sorts of 'great' brew minds in the past and unfortunately had to discover many things on my own that people were telling me should be fine but I was getting mediocre results so I'm naturally into experimenting myself with the knowledge I have. It's definitely been the winning ingredient in the past

By the way, my beers darken as they clear

 

[manticle]

Don't forget, there's multiple ale, crystal and cara.

Brewing is very much about trying things out and tweaking according to results.

 

[Jack of all biers]

By the way, my beers darken as they clear

That's the optical illusion. The white coloured particles drop to the bottom and aren't reflecting as much light back into your eyes. The beer doesn't actually darken though.

And yes you have to brew to the way you think best and learn by experimenting, that's for sure.

 

[manticle]

Sure. Here it is
www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=9465.0

Unless I'm missing something, that forum post doesn't describe what was actually tried. Link within, purportedly to the experiment was unfortunately broken. What and how did they test?