Corny Instead Of A No-chill Cube.....

[SpillsMostOfIt]

As a largely off-topic aside, I am about to return a couple of Willow cubes I bought on the weekend because they cannot be made to seal. When compared to the cubes I purchased a couple of years ago, it is clear they have decided to save some money on their molding.

So, I'm now on the lookout for the bestest cubes to be had.

Back on topic, I figure that I want to end up with at least a keg's full of beer coming out of my fermenter. Starting with a keg of wort to ferment doesn't help me get there. The thing I like about the 20-ish litre cubes is that they size nicely against standard (?) size fermenters which results in a goodly-sized batch. For my money, it is about ensuring the sizes of all the vessels throughout the process match.

 

[Leigh]

Off-Topic:

I've read a couple of times on this thread about the pasteurising benefits of no-chill...has this actually been measured or is this just somebodies theorising that became urban myth that was repeated enough times that it is now fact?

On-Topic:

Just because a method isn't promoted by the members of one particular club (AHB), who are, as one of the retailers keeps pointing out, really just another minority group in the Australian home-brewing scheme, does not mean that the method isn't a good one, or is infact not better than the existing method...

...and further, being in charge of multi-millions of dollars in innovation funding, sometimes it is those who are just starting out who have the brightest ideas...the phrase "old dogs new tricks" comes to mind.

Point is, ideas can come from anybody, so lets not go down that whole route of "you're not qualified to think on this topic"!

 

[Steve]

Off-Topic:

I've read a couple of times on this thread about the pasteurising benefits of no-chill...has this actually been measured or is this just somebodies theorising that became urban myth that was repeated enough times that it is now fact?

On-Topic:

Just because a method isn't promoted by the members of one particular club (AHB), who are, as one of the retailers keeps pointing out, really just another minority group in the Australian home-brewing scheme, does not mean that the method isn't a good one, or is infact not better than the existing method...

...and further, being in charge of multi-millions of dollars in innovation funding, sometimes it is those who are just starting out who have the brightest ideas...the phrase "old dogs new tricks" comes to mind.

Point is, ideas can come from anybody, so lets not go down that whole route of "you're not qualified to think on this topic"!

Off topice answer:
Dunno

On topic answer:
+1

Cheers
Steve

 

[Ross]

Personally I love the idea of using S/S kegs as I still worry about the quality of plastics coming from some manufacturers; especially when I here of guys having to wash their cubes out with boiling water several times to get rid of the plastic taste - These things are supposed to be food grade, what the hell is leaching out that tastes of plastic? Does several rinses cure the problem, or is whatever's leaching, just not detectable by taste anymore?
Kegs are easy to fully sanitise, far easier for me than cubes & I have a nice selection of 23L ones that would be perfect for this.
i reckon I'd just fit my sodastream bottle at low pressure to the gas valve & purge the headspace with CO2. As the cooling creates contraction, the headspace will just top up with a small volume of CO2 - once cooled, just disconnect the bottle & put away till brew day.


Cheers Ross

 

[buttersd70]

Off-Topic:

I've read a couple of times on this thread about the pasteurising benefits of no-chill...has this actually been measured or is this just somebodies theorising that became urban myth that was repeated enough times that it is now fact?

One of the retailers (I think it might have been either scotty or MHB, but can't remember, nor can I find the link ) made a post about a week ago, including a report that he'd prepared for his insurers relating to pasteurisation in the production of FWK (which is essentially the same as standard no chill). It had full graphical breakdown and analytical data relating to time v temperature, and it's effect on pasteurisation. It was a very interesting read.

 

[Darren]

Thirsty,

Obviously the reason corny no-chill is "not the most common practice" is because MOST people no-chilling are trying to save money (or have not yet made a chiller). $10 for a "cube" is an easy, short term fix.

To think that everyone has spare kegs lying around to be used as "no-chill" vessels to me is short sighted!!

The reason the keg "chilled" in the pool so much quicker is in fact that plastic is a VERY poor thermal conductor.

cheers

Darren

 

[T.D.]

As a largely off-topic aside, I am about to return a couple of Willow cubes I bought on the weekend because they cannot be made to seal. When compared to the cubes I purchased a couple of years ago, it is clear they have decided to save some money on their molding.

What size were the cubes that didn't seal? Were they the 20L jerry cans. I bought some of these recently and could not get the lids to seal either. Seemed to be due to the heat (not what they are designed for) but still didn't make me that happy after shelling out $40. Anyway, I suppose they can be used as CCing cubes or something instead.

Sorry for the OT...

 

[PostModern]

The best cubes are empty commercial wort packs. Food grade HDPE bought by a food goods producing company for the purpose of packaging hot wort, ie no guessing, the breweries order what they need. Food grade means that the plasticisers are safe to consume, even if they do leach, usually citric acid or similar is used. I've never had one smell like plastic, even when new. I would be suspect of using any container that smelled like plastic to put hot wort into.

Again, the main disadvantage I see with using corny kegs is that I wouldn't trust them for long term storage unless the posts have been completely broken down and sanitised each use. Wort needs more care than finished beer.

 

[T.D.]

Personally I love the idea of using S/S kegs as I still worry about the quality of plastics coming from some manufacturers; especially when I here of guys having to wash their cubes out with boiling water several times to get rid of the plastic taste - These things are supposed to be food grade, what the hell is leaching out that tastes of plastic? Does several rinses cure the problem, or is whatever's leaching, just not detectable by taste anymore?

Beyond any flavour issues, there's also the question of what chemicals are being leached out in the process. I don't want to sound paranoid, but given that fumes from plastic are considered toxic, is there a possibility that adding boiling liquid to plastic on an ongoing basis could extract similar toxins? Just playing devil's advocate here - no idea if there is any actual truth to this, but its always been something I've wondered about. The s/s option puts an end to any such possibilities though...

 

[PostModern]

Beyond any flavour issues, there's also the question of what chemicals are being leached out in the process. I don't want to sound paranoid, but given that fumes from plastic are considered toxic,

Fumes from burning plastic. At wort temps, HDPE (shouldn't) doesn't release anything. It doesn't go plastic until 130C, at which time it might release a food grade plasticiser. We went thru all this in the early No Chill threads, no need to rehash it here.

 

[David Sinclair]

I like the idea of fermenting in a keg, i've got plastic fermenters that are all stained and funky looking and (unfortunaltely) i always seem to have a couple of spare kegs. I might start doing 38l batches and using two kegs.

Such a simple idea, now why didn't i think of that.

 

[T.D.]

Fumes from burning plastic. At wort temps, HDPE (shouldn't) doesn't release anything. It doesn't go plastic until 130C, at which time it might release a food grade plasticiser. We went thru all this in the early No Chill threads, no need to rehash it here.

Thanks PoMo for the clarification, and sorry to waste everybody's time with such trivial issues!

 

[PostModern]

Sorry TD, didn't mean to get all forum Nazi on you, but the number of posts knocking NC in plastic cubes despite the (tens of??) millions of litres safely produced wort is quite frustrating to read again and again. HDPE is even used in place of tin cans for packing fruit now. The stuff is SAFE.

 

[Jakechan]

Well, Im with Ross, I dont like the idea of using plastic at all. And when I can replace my fermenters with something else other than plastics I will be happy. I dont really care what the MSDS says for HDPE, I still dont trust it especially at higher temps.

This has been an interesting thread though. Apologies to the mods if they feel this topic is stale, but like any forum new people join all the time, and the old topics will continue to resurface. As long as we are all nice...
(Im a mod at another forum BTW so I understand the problem)

Cheers,
Jake

 

[PostModern]

Well, Im with Ross, I dont like the idea of using plastic at all. And when I can replace my fermenters with something else other than plastics I will be happy. I dont really care what the MSDS says for HDPE, I still dont trust it especially at higher temps.

This has been an interesting thread though. Apologies to the mods if they feel this topic is stale, but like any forum new people join all the time, and the old topics will continue to resurface. As long as we are all nice...
(Im a mod at another forum BTW so I understand the problem)

Cheers,
Jake

My last few posts weren't as a mod, they were as a NoChill zealot

Using kegs to NC is a relatively new area. Like all brewing techniques, it'd be interesting to see this method tested.

EDIT: Interesting to see it tested without bashing an existing proven technique, preferably

 

[Jakechan]

My last few posts weren't as a mod, they were as a NoChill zealot

Using kegs to NC is a relatively new area. Like all brewing techniques, it'd be interesting to see this method tested.

Cool, my misunderstanding.

Cheers,
Jake

 

[pokolbinguy]

Wow....this thread seems to have become a hot topic...never have thought it would be so controversial either....O well makes things interesting...

Pok

 

[Leigh]

One of the retailers (I think it might have been either scotty or MHB, but can't remember, nor can I find the link ) made a post about a week ago, including a report that he'd prepared for his insurers relating to pasteurisation in the production of FWK (which is essentially the same as standard no chill). It had full graphical breakdown and analytical data relating to time v temperature, and it's effect on pasteurisation. It was a very interesting read.

Thanks for that Butters, an interesting read. Linky here.

I still don't see the point though...pasteurisation is being used as an arguement for not chilling, but after a 30-60 min boil and dropping that into the cube at near boiling temperature, you are already as pasteurised as you will ever get...most pasteurisation holds at 70-80 degrees for a few minutes...more time just does nothing for that arguement...

Hence my question, which could have been phrased a little better:

The advocates for no-chill claim the "added" pasteurisation of no-chilling (hence the arguement above against chucking the corny in the pool)...my question above is really: Has this been measured (yada yada)?

Contrary to posts above, HDPE does breakdown (over a loooooong time), heat and UV etc only accelerate this...so isn't chilling when cubing better to avoid this?

Using these ideas, it would mean no-chill in something other than plastic would be preferred...

...and what exactly does "food grade" mean? Safe to consume?

Playing devils advocate here...

 

[Duff]

A few of us in Sydney tried this a couple years ago in kegs - Linky

I guess at the end of the day it was the ease of dumping a 15L cube into the fermenter which resulted in the switch to a cube from a keg. Maybe some guys are still doing it.

 

[trevc]

I was tempted to respond, but Thirsty Boy took the words right out of my mouth!