Coopers (Lager) Yeast

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livo

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Thanks. I can do that and it's already started. I didn't believe my nose and thought I might be imagining it, so I had my wife and daughter do the sniff test. They both agreed that the sample from the same tube were different when split into 2 sanitised jars and the test performed. Near boiling water and allowed to sit for only 15 minutes. Both samples then brought to the same lower temperature and it was obvious. I can't think of a better description than buttery. Not a huge difference but it is there.
 

livo

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Ok. This is great. How long do you leave it at 20'?

If I allow my fridge to bring it down to say 4'C, from 20' at 2' per day it will take another 8 days. So, that's the 10 it's already been in, plus a few (maybe 3) at 20'C and then 8 days to cool, which means 3 weeks in the FV. Is it then ready to bottle? Or do I leave it for longer? or rack it to a secondary and keep it cool? I've now got a second fridge with another STC-1000 on they way, so I can do that. Can I "lager" it in the bottles?

Sorry about all the questions but this is new ground for me. It's a bit different to k&k for beer to drink in 3 weeks from start to pouring into a glass.

When the FV temperature started to rise the airlock started bubbling again. Yeast activity or volume increase pressure I'm not sure. I'll check it for activity today.

Edit: I just read that it can take up to 50 days in the FV and based upon the sequence timing used, I'm actually rushing it. They say 20 days to ferment, 3 days diacetyl rest, several days to slowly cool and then left until day 50. That's a lot of FV time where you can't be making another brew. I'm going to need a bigger shed.

Edit:Edit: And now I've just read this from MHB in another thread. Carbonating a Lager in the bottle. This will be my next hurdle.
 
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MHB

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Lager brewing is both time consuming and technically much more demanding than brewing ale. That’s probably why over 90% of the mega brewers make lager and over 90% of craft/home brewers make ale.

It’s well worth taking a little time to learn about the process of lager brewing and to plan ahead, as yes it tends to be a bit of a fridge hog.
BYO had a fairly good step by step introduction to the process. It’s a few years old now and there have been a lot of "new" ideas like pressure fermentation since then. Any process change made to help speed up the process is going to change the beer you end up making, that’s just a given. Up to you to decide if you can live with the changes in flavour. Again learning and planning is a good first step, so before investing in a pressure fermenter at a minimum do a bit of basic research, can save you a lot of time and wasted beer down the track.
Mark
 

livo

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Yep. I'm learning a lot real quick and it isn't exactly what I'd thought. A decade ago a HBS guy told me to just brew lager in winter cause it's cold and you don't need to worry about keeping it warm. Just use some lager yeast and that's it. I never got around to it so here I am today, building the plane in the air.

What I've just read, I think comes from Dr Chris White (Whitelabs) and Jamil Zainasheff, Yeast: The Practical Guide to Beer Fermentation., or it has been paraphrased and referenced to create a guide to the process. I had no idea it would take up to 50 days in the FV so the question is, can I take it out of the FV and lager / condition it in the bottle shortly after the diacetyl rest, or does it need to lager on the yeast cake?

MHB, your post in the linked thread above is of some concern to me in stating that it may be necessary to add some fresh yeast to the bottling bucket to ensure active carbonation and doing it all while cold. What would be the process involved here?

The trouble is with the time lag from this batch, I'm going to run out of drinking beer. :confused: I better go and buy another bucket. :drinkingbeer:

I may need to look into these "faux" lagers, whatever they are.
 

Westheimer

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Well, to my surprise that worked and even though I doubted my nose's capability, I was able to detect a different aroma from the heated sample, and yes, I could describe it to be buttery.

So, I guess that means I need to do a DA rest, but at what temperature? Slightly elevated to the yeast upper limit of15'C or full outside at 20 - 22'C?

I'll raise it to 15 first which will take a while and await further instruction / recommendation.

Hi Livo
The below may be of interest to you:


Cheers
 

livo

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It's interesting that the writer of this article specifically states that additional yeast at bottling is not required with this method.

I always like to read comments, questions and answers on pages like this one Westheimer, and there are a few interesting points straight up. I haven't read all of it but it's good that he actually answers and responds.

1) Suck back is discussed in the cooling to lager temperature phase, with debate about the time it takes to perform Vs impact of suck back. Does a slow reduction in temp over several days alleviate the issue compared to a straight cold crash? Science says it shouldn't. If the yeast continues to provide even a little CO2 then it might, but will it after 10 days primary and 3 days D rest. I'd say probably not much.

2) It appears to be only a very short time after the "Method" was shared that the writer is steering away from the process himself. He says that he rarely uses the cold fermentation process anymore and simply uses reliable lager strains and ferments at ale temperatures. L13 Global, L17 Harvest or 34/70 @ 19'C for 3-4 days then 22'C for 2-3 days then crash.

I guess I have a lot of experimentation to perform. If he first baulked at 50 - 60 day ferments, was aiming to cut that in half and has now gone to "typical" ale ferments over a matter of weeks then I guess that will be a path to explore, at least in summer anyway. Keeping it cool in winter shouldn't be too much of an issue.
 

livo

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At the end of today I'll begin to reduce temperature gradually, hoping not to have problems with air going back into the FV. I guess I'm committed to the process this time so I'll just have to accept a few more weeks in the fridge.

My next decision will be whether or not to use "bottling yeast". The brulosophy method says it isn't required, but I've now read a few posts by Mark (MHB) where it is recommended. If you read this Mark, you say in the Resch's Pilsner (silver bullet) recipe thread that 514 is adequate (a cracker). How much would you use in a typical 23 litre bucket? I guess it can't hurt so it will be a bottling bucket, fresh hydrated kit yeast and bulk prime.
 
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Hi Livo,
I'm not sure but I think you are overly concerned about the suck back during cold crashing. If you are concerned about the liquid in your bubbler getting into your brew I haven't experienced that happening and I cold crash all the time now. I do however use a combination of water and vodka in the bubbler, just in case. If it's air getting in from what I have read there is an ample CO2 blanket over the brew which is heavier than O2 so that shouldn't be a problem either. But if I'm missing something some one will pick me up.
 

livo

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Never done it before and I'm doing gradual cool over several days. I'm just going to see what happens. Liquid in the air lock shouldn't be a problem as gas should just bubble through in reverse if anything. I haven't pulled the airlock to do SG recently so there should be CO2 after 3 days at 20'C.

I may investigate Soda stream bottle for future if it is a viable solution.
 

philrob

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I haven't used an airlock for years. A couple layers of clingwrap held in place with the rubber seal from the lid works great. And you get to see what goes on in the fermenter!
 
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I haven't used an airlock for years. A couple layers of clingwrap held in place with the rubber seal from the lid works great. And you get to see what goes on in the fermenter!

But that steady bubble bubble is so hypnotic.

What's the rate, if any, of oxygen diffusion through clingwrap?
 

philrob

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I don't worry about that. I bottle my brews at 10 to 14 days in. If I rack off the fermenter for lagering I do it under cover of cO2.
 

livo

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I haven't used an airlock for years. A couple layers of clingwrap held in place with the rubber seal from the lid works great. And you get to see what goes on in the fermenter!

My father used to do "open fermentation" for some of his brews. No airlock or clingwrap with a rubber band. Just a loose fitting lid to keep settling nasties out.
I recently bought 12 X 60 litre lidded Willow plastic bins from the big B at a good price. I've been using a few for hydroponic cucumbers, recently 1 for sterilisation of my bottles, etc. I have been tempted to do a 50 litre open ferment but I don't think they are food grade. Maybe a way to get rid of the second can of Brigalow just to see what happens.

I know the yanks (sorry yank) use similar bins for fermentation but they have a different (brand) name for them and they may be food grade. I know they are ok for some things but maybe not beer. No hurry or need to try really with what I have on hand.

Cooling phase has begun with no noticeable change in +ve pressure from the FV so far. Tomorrow morning will show if any has occurred.
 

livo

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This is from the comment in the Burnt Rubber thread Mark. Am I missing something?

.....
Never leave the beer on the yeast cake for more than 14 Days (EVER!)
.....
Mark

I pitched my lager yeast on 13/1/22 and did primary ferment for 9 days (approx), then raised the temp for 3 days for the rest. Today is day 2 of temperature drop to Lager temps, but also day 14 on the yeast. Is it OK to leave it in the primary fermenter or not? I can transfer to a secondary vessel, off the yeast if required as it's going to be there for at least another 2 weeks or so, probably.

Should I;
a) leave it where it is, drop the temperature and lager on the yeast?
b) transfer to a secondary FV, then as above?
OR,
c) bottle it and lager the bottles in the fridge? (additional yeast or no?)
 
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livo

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Now down to 10.5'C with no vacuum back into the fermenter. Still just slightly +ve with water level in the airlock still higher on the outlet. I'll be down to low temperature by Sunday and I doubt there'll be any significant suck-back if any. It appears to be going OK.
 

livo

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Down to 8.0 today and first sign of -ve pressure (vacuum). Airlock tube slightly higher on the fermenter side.
 

MHB

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Mate if you just stuffed a cotton ball in the neck of the airlock any bugs in the air being drawn in will be filtered out.
It’s called "tortuous path entrapment". The rate air is drawn in is very slow and whatever you had in your airlock (water, sanitiser, vodka...) should also clean out most any dust, remember that most bacteria travel on dust particles.
I think you might be over concerned about suck-back, airlocks work in both directions.
Mark
 

livo

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I'm not worried about. I understand the air lock will work both ways and that the CO2 in the fermenter is adequate. Just observations about the relationship of fv pressure to temperature. It's taken a substantial temp change over several days to even become noticeable.

I'm more concerned about whether it should or should not be still in the primary fermenter with the yeast after now exceeding 14 days.

Then I'll need to know about bottling yeast.
 

livo

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Ready to bottle this over the weekend. I would appreciate a little advice as I've not ever done this style of beer before. I can use a bottling bucket and bulk prime.
Question 1) Should I bottle this cold, straight from the lagering fridge or warm it up a bit to room temperature overnight?
Question 2) Is additional priming yeast required or not, and how much if it is?
 

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