Cooling a conical fv

[Moad]

I've scored myself a 100 litre conical but don't have a fridge big enough to fit it.

It isn't such an issue now as temps in the garage are a steady 18 or so, I imagine it will start causing issues in summer when it hits 30+. I can do 40 litre batches and use my current fermenting fridge but I'd really like to minimise equipment in the garage and just use the conical.

Is my only option to find a fridge big enough to fit it or is there a way to retrofit temp control.

its 1500 high, 650 x 650

 

[Yob]

Should be fine with an all fridge setup, unless jacketed, you'll have trouble..

 

[mudd]

Hi moad
A fridge/cool room of some sort would be best.
I assume it's not jacketed, however you could consider coiling plastic to tubing around the fermenter and running coolant from a freezer or fridge. I used to do this with radiator coolant on a plastic fermenter from the top section of my beer fridge using beer line. Probably not the most efficient method but worked. I used a pond pump which was a bit underpowered and sometimes had issues with bubbles in the line but was ok once the flow was going.
The main issue I see with this is if your only doing 40l your prob not getting up past the cone.... Pretty tricky to fix the tubing.
Cheers Mudd.

 

[Maheel]

maybe build a box of coolroom material around it and use a "box" window room aircon to cool it

 

[Moad]

Mudd that might work, Could keep the fridge on and run it out of the freezer. That way I could use the fridge part for lagering.

So just a little pond or LBP and coil some beer line in the freezer and fill with radiator coolant. Run it around the FV then insulate with some foam or something?

Crank the fridge right down and use an stc to turn the pump on and off.

 

[Judanero]

I've scored myself a 100 litre conical but don't have a fridge big enough to fit it.

:lol: First world problems hey! Nice one Moad, as Maheel said maybe cool room and aircon option?

Or would a fridge/freezer modded with some cool room panels (essentially extending the fridge/freezer part out) and a decent size fan to move the air around work?

Or I saw someone who'd ran some copper around their stainless fv and had it essentially in a (insulated) loop running through the fridge.. Maybe also an option?

Let us know how you go! :super:

 

[Moad]

:lol: First world problems hey! Nice one Moad, as Maheel said maybe cool room and aircon option?

haha yeah I got a great deal on the whole setup, there is another thread somewhere on the upgrade... been spamming a bit lately...hooked completely.

I have a copper chiller, would it be way too risky to run this actually inside the fermenter and circulate back through the freezer part of the fridge (coiled up in the freezer with anti-freeze) and pumped with a LBP?

I think to buy more copper and wrap it around the FV would be cost prohibitive with the price of copper. Hose is a pretty ordinary conducter looking back at the previous post. Mudd did you use copper or something around your Fermenter?

 

[MastersBrewery]

I just spent the last hour perusing ghetto glycol chiller (was bore something to dream about) anyways the coil in the fermenter is becoming more common just in SS some thing like this. I dont know what your lid looks like but I'm sure the local SS fab place could attach shape and roll some jockey box coil from KK for you. Then go look at the ghetto glycol setups

Think of it this way: you'll have this fermenter till you either quit brewing or die, sort it out the once.

MB

 

[Judanero]

^^ yep, but if cost is prohibitive regarding buying copper coil then ss may also fall in this category.

http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/yagoona/building-materials/coolroom-eps-sandwich-panel-75mm-thickness-27-m2/1055971562

or

http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/guildford/miscellaneous-goods/used-cool-room-panels/1055785134

I reckon if you've managed to score a 100L conical, you'd be best off saving your pennies to do it once and do it right.

Why isn't there a jealousy emoticon? B)

 

[Moad]

I could probably build a cool room cheaper than setting up immersion temp control. Only problem is am I not very DIY inclined, I love a project but have no clue what I am doing.

You guys are right though I am best to do it once and do it properly.

 

[Florian]

how about a double door glass fridge? there are some on ebay around the 200-300 if you are a little patient.


that way you can always see your baby, just be aware that they are a bit noisier than normal fridges.

btw, have you shown us any pics yet?

 

[Moad]

I've been on the lookout for a month or so but haven't see anything nearby...I found one that was perfect but was JUST too small.

There are some pics of the whole system here - http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/82082-morebeer-systemshould-i/

 

[Moad]

This is possibly redundant, just found a fridge for $200...confirming dimensions.

 

[Feldon]

Couple of lopops of stainless tubing about a third of the way below beer surface. Use this coil to circulate coolant. In and out ports through the fermentor lid.

Forget glycol its overkill - you're not trying to cool a V12 engine. Fermentation generates heat, but its not a furnace on the homebrew scale. And you need to be gentle with the yeast and avoid harsh changes in temp. Use plenty of cool/cold water stored in a temp-controlled fridge or freezer and pumped through the coil by any suitable budget pump you can find (no need to be food grade - its only pumping water which will never touch your beer).

Use a STC or a PID with probe in a thermowell to start/stop coolant circulation.

Insulate the outside of the conical (eg. camping mat material) to reduce the impact of the ambient air temp, especially in summer.

There's more to think through but that's a start.

 

[Moad]

If I don't find a fridge in the next month or two I will look at a recirculating option.

Would there be enough movement of the wort to spread the temp changes with the real thin coils? I think id prefer something attached to the outside to get more of an ambient heat/cool.

 

[Feldon]

Plenty of movement during active fermentation. And convection currents will establish when the beer (not "wort") in contact with the coil drops down because its denser that the surrounding beer that is relatively warmer. The warmer beer will flow up to the top - and the cycle continues.

Don't think of it like chilling hot wort straight from the boil. The aim there is to get the temp down as fast as possible. With fermentation you want to make the heat transfer from beer to coolant take place gently, and you have the time because fermentation runs for days.

 

[Judanero]

IMO, if you get 5 or 6 cool room panels panels + some Al gaffa tape and/or expanding foam you'll have plenty of insulation to extend an upright freezer/fridge/fridge-freezer with a fan to circulate the air (+STC).

If you can score a second fridge free (or close enough) off gumtree you could 'sandwich' the fv in between the two fridge/freezers and four panels. Still would need a fan to move the air though.

 

[Moad]

Feldon, yeah beer I guess once ferment starts... I guess the temp difference wouldn't be huge in whatever was re circulating. Still, much easier if I can score a fridge to just throw it in but something to look at if that doesn't happen.

Judanero I struggle to get the keezer and fermenting fridge past the mrs, if I had some 2 fridge with insulation panels behemoth in the garage I would never hear the end of it. WOuld have to be something aesthetically OK as well.

 

[MastersBrewery]

Don't know where you are Moad but saw this last night, thought of you, then thought of me, then thought of the current budget and the shallow grave that would ensue h34r:

 

[Moad]

CHeers mate, I've seen that one.

I'm in Newcastle so a bit far for me. I think I've found something but confirming dimensions. Don't want to post it yet in case I get sniped!

 

[MHB]

If you go to any commercial refrigeration supplier they will have Heat Transfer Sealant, I would coil copper pipe where I wanted to apply the cooling, joint with the transfer past and insulate well.

I have used this stuff with good results.
Mark

 

[klangers]

A few points that may help:

• A domestic fridge will probably not have enough refrigeration capacity to adequately cool the fermenter - especially so when the volume of air is increased and a DIY cool box has been put in place (ie unlikely to be fully air tight and thus would allow infiltration) - you'll need to transfer ~ 260 watts of heat out of the fermenter for chillback over 8 hours
• Industrial brewery fermenters are jacketed and insulated. There is plenty of heat transfer area in the surface of the tank to keep the whole brew cool
• MHB's solution above is probably worth a try if you have a method to chill water or a glycol system
• Domestic air conditioning systems generally don't have a sufficiently low evaporating temperature to effectively chill (generally ~12 degrees minimum)
• I've done jobs in this area for industrial breweries - let me know if you'd like a few numbers that would point you towards the required refrige capacity you'd need.

 

[Moad]

Klangers, commercial glass front fridges be ok? Enclosed... no cooling boxes or extensions etc

I cool wort to 19-23 so it is only maintaining temps and then potentially cold crashing.

 

[MastersBrewery]

I certainly won't disagree with above, my concerns as stated elsewhere for Home brewers is that of volume, until your over 300L odd there isn't enough thermal mass to remain above ale temps during winter and throughout spring. It was 6deg over night and 25deg today if your maintaining say17-18 for ferment it's going to drop considerably over night. So I would maintain that a large fridge with heating( small heater, hair dryer) would be the best option on even large (sub 150L) home brewing scale.

Moad those comercial drink fridge hold more soft drink than your fermenter capacity you should be fine as long as it fits in there.

MB

 

[klangers]

Yeah the commercial fridges should be fine as they are designed for more frequent door opening and thus have a larger fridge capacity to cope with the more frequent influx of warm air.

TLDR Technical blurb below - work's slow today

I'd agree with MB about the thermal mass (although I'd say it's vessel heat transfer surface area:vessel volume ratio ). Difference is with a whole heap of little cans is that they can cool down much quicker as they are individual little vessels with a far higher surface area available for heat transfer compared to the volume of liquid undergoing the temperature change. These would place a higher load (for a shorter time) on the fridge than a big vessel of the same volume.

If we assume that the fridge is infinitely powerful and can maintain a constant temperature of eg 18 degrees, the cans would cool far quicker than the vessel, despite the overall volumes being the same. No matter how powerful the fridge, if you set the temperature at 18 degrees, the limiting factor is how fast the heat can transfer from the wort, through the vessel wall and then into the air. If the air is relatively motionless, then further boundary layers form on the surface. The only way to combat this would be to increase the temperature difference and set the fridge at a lower temperature (and thereby introduce the complexity of controlling a dynamic refrige temp) or increase the air flow inside the fridge (eg an additional fan).

Lower evaporating temperatures come with lower coefficients of performance and thus the refrige capacity is then reduced at the lower temps. This is the basis for my comments re fridge capacity of "air jacketing". Jacketing with liquid doesn't have this problem as the heat transfer rate between turbulent liquids is generally sufficiently high.

I hope I'm not covering old ground :lol:

 

[MastersBrewery]

Yeah the commercial fridges should be fine as they are designed for more frequent door opening and thus have a larger fridge capacity to cope with the more frequent influx of warm air.

TLDR Technical blurb below - work's slow today

I'd agree with MB about the thermal mass (although I'd say it's vessel heat transfer surface area:vessel volume ratio ). Difference is with a whole heap of little cans is that they can cool down much quicker as they are individual little vessels with a far higher surface area available for heat transfer compared to the volume of liquid undergoing the temperature change. These would place a higher load (for a shorter time) on the fridge than a big vessel of the same volume.

If we assume that the fridge is infinitely powerful and can maintain a constant temperature of eg 18 degrees, the cans would cool far quicker than the vessel, despite the overall volumes being the same. No matter how powerful the fridge, if you set the temperature at 18 degrees, the limiting factor is how fast the heat can transfer from the wort, through the vessel wall and then into the air. If the air is relatively motionless, then further boundary layers form on the surface. The only way to combat this would be to increase the temperature difference and set the fridge at a lower temperature (and thereby introduce the complexity of controlling a dynamic refrige temp) or increase the air flow inside the fridge (eg an additional fan).

Lower evaporating temperatures come with lower coefficients of performance and thus the refrige capacity is then reduced at the lower temps. This is the basis for my comments re fridge capacity of "air jacketing". Jacketing with liquid doesn't have this problem as the heat transfer rate between turbulent liquids is generally sufficiently high.

I hope I'm not covering old ground :lol:

This is where lovely algorithms for maintaining fermentation temperature come in, and of course having something to control heating and cooling that already has these algorithms loaded is really the best which is exactly what Brew pi does within 0.1c of course going with just an STC 1000 will get you pretty close. Note I mean the input of cooling or heating being dependent on actual wort temp not surrounding air temp in the fridge. Water Jacketing whilst more effective/efficient, is way less cost effective on a start up level, unless these systems already exist (already have a glycol chiller) for small scale and on that scale would require a secondary heated circuit or other means of directly applying heat to the vessel.

For lion Nathan to get a few small jacketed fermenters( say 100l) for pilot batches makes sense they already have the temp control systems in place just hook the new ones in.

MB

 

[Moad]

Understood, makes complete sense that moving liquid would exchange temp quicker than stale air.

I would throw a PC fan in to keep the air moving anyway, works wonders in a keezer.

I'd need alot of copper to wrap around the FV and back into the freezer next to it, It would be an awesome way to do it though as I could then keep the fridge section on for lagering.

It is a lot less effort (and probably $) to just pick up a commercial fridge and stick it in there. I'll just have to insulate the temp probe against the fermenter as best I can

 

[klangers]

This is where lovely algorithms for maintaining fermentation temperature come in, and of course having something to control heating and cooling that already has these algorithms loaded is really the best which is exactly what Brew pi does within 0.1c of course going with just an STC 1000 will get you pretty close. Note I mean the input of cooling or heating being dependent on actual wort temp not surrounding air temp in the fridge. Water Jacketing whilst more effective/efficient, is way less cost effective on a start up level, unless these systems already exist (already have a glycol chiller) for small scale and on that scale would require a secondary heated circuit or other means of directly applying heat to the vessel.

For lion Nathan to get a few small jacketed fermenters( say 100l) for pilot batches makes sense they already have the temp control systems in place just hook the new ones in.

MB

Yeah totally. Jacketed fermenters are insanely expensive on a small scale.

If you can get a fridge, go for it. Better than spending $$$$ upfront and forever wondering if the cheaper solution would have worked. :blink:

 

[seamad]

Wouldn't an upright freezer be better than a fridge, especially for cold crashing ?

 

[klangers]

Wouldn't an upright freezer be better than a fridge, especially for cold crashing ?

Yep. If you can find one big enough for a 100L fermenter