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Cold/hot Break Advice

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Gout

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I have been reading the topic on grumpys and now i'm confused.

Do you leave the hot break behind in the pot, then cool the wort, and again leave the cold break behind?

in doing this i would have about 10% wort left to brew with :)

So what do you guys do?

in my last brew i got hot/cold break then poured the lot into the fermenter :) maybe i stuffed up big time!
 

Linz

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Ben,
From my limited knowledge...The hot break occurs just after you bring the brew to the boil(seeing little flakes rolling over in the boil),then you continue to boil for the alotted time.
When the boil is finished you cool the wort as quickly as possible with the equipment you have(chiller or sink with ice),this brings out the cold break.
Then when its cooled as much as it is going to be or pitching temp, THEN run off the wort to your fermenter leaving the hot and cold break behind.

If I'm too far off the mark I'm sure someone will jump in with the correct facts ;)
 

Gough

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I just posted on the Grumpy's discussion on this topic and am also keen on clarification. I've just always tipped as much of the pot after cooling into my fermenter as I can while leaving the bulk of the thick green/grey sludge in the botom behind. Am I doing something wrong here?? :blink:

Shawn.
 

therook

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when I,m boling away, i generally skim the crap of the top of the boil as I go along.

Mark
 

GMK

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My Understanding is this.

Hot break is bad - skim it off.
Cold break doesn't matter and is actually beneficial - contains essential nutrients for the yeast.

One thing with cold break - is that it can effect the clarity of the finished beer.

I think most brewers around here dont worry about the cold break.

I hope i have this right.
 

deebee

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REALLY keen to hear some good advice on this.

Did find a few things that suggest the hot and cold break should not go into the fermenter. BYO has some good tips for making this easier eg:

http://www.byo.com/feature/188.html

but what I really want is for someone to say: "No. It doesn't matter too much, it will all be left behind when you rack anyway."

Anyone?
 

GMK

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deebee said:
REALLY keen to hear some good advice on this.

Did find a few things that suggest the hot and cold break should not go into the fermenter. BYO has some good tips for making this easier eg:

http://www.byo.com/feature/188.html

but what I really want is for someone to say: "No. It doesn't matter too much, it will all be left behind when you rack anyway."

Anyone?
I agree with Deebee.

When i do my boil - idon't strain anything....it all goes in the primary.

Once the stuff settles and is covered by dead yeast cells - cant do any more harm/good.

If you use a counterflow wort chiller - you dont get to see it.

Some guys make a whirlpool and let the wort stand for the stuff to settle.
Some use a false bottom in the keg/boiler and draw the wort from under the false bottom leaving the break/material on top of the false bottom.

Best of all. Experiment and try different things and then evaluate.
Eg if i think that leaving the cold break behind makes my beer taste 1% better and is 5% clearer but it will cost meXXX in dollars, time and 10% extra effort to do so -- then you can decide if it is worth it.

Making Beer is not Rocket Science and usually KISS works.
Getting bogged down in some of theese things - while extra knowledge / learning is good - can be a bit detrimental and obsessive.

Off my high horse now.
 

deebee

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Grumpys forum contains some good info on this right now. Good news for kit and extract brewers. :)

More headaches for all-grainers :( but then, you guys asked for it ;)


www.grumpys.com
 

Gout

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Well tonight i thought i would do some trial and error + use up a kit and some Dry malt i wanted to get rid off so i made a bitsa beer. That's bits of everything :)

Coopers Lager kit (standard yeast)
800g dark DME
600g Light DME
3/4 cup of corn syrip
1/3 cup Glucose
12.5 g goldings hop (5 min boil)
some irish moss

now i used these because they were in packets and in the way so dont worry about my lack of good recipie skills
(GMK this was based on you suggestion of 2Kg Darm malt + lager kit to make a dog bolter)


I boiled the kit + water and my got the Hot break never thought there would be that much!

then i added a tiny amount of the goldings wanting to add a tad bitterness (combat the DME)

i them Cooled it getting cold break, it was full of "break" and i stired it trying to make it form in the middle of the pot and sink but it never happened!!!

i then tried my new filter(inline) but it blocked within 10sec

so i just sived it in the end.... i dont have a clue how people leave the "break" behind...


anyway to the laughter of others i also dropped a bowl into the brew as i was putting the lid on GRRRRR not a good end result but i cleaned out the "bits" of brew....


idea's on keeping the "hot break" out of the brewer

(on Morgans kits it said no need to boil, they got the protiein's out, but this coopers was FULL of it)


food for thought
 

kingoftheharpies

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So there are 2 kinds of break, hot and cold.

Hot break occurs during the boil hence hot and cold when you chill hense cold. Both breaks are coagulated proteins and polyphenols. Hot break is good and bad. The good part is that it provides alot of the skelatal material yeast need to grow, the bad part is that to much will give you astringency problems. I dont worry about the hot break so much. With about 15min left in my boil I add some Irish Moss which increases the hot break. At knock out I whirlpool the wort and let it sit for about 15 minutes. After racking you will see quite a large cone of hops and break at the bottom.

Now for cold break. If you use a counter-flow chiller you cant see the cold break forming you can only see it in the carboy and usually scares the crap out of people. I looks just like huge curds in suspension. No worries, it will settle in a day or so. You have to make sure to transfet to a secondary quite within 8 days or so and leave behind as much of the break and trub as you can.
 

GMK

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Talking of astringency problems - i have a question.

When i make my partial Stout i do the following.

I steep the grains in cold water overnight:
150 Roasted Barley
200 Choc
200 Xtal
200 Light Xtal

I then add the cold liquor straight into the fermenter - i dont boil it.
I only boil the 1kg of amber LME with my hops, Dark Brown Sugar and lactose.
I dont boil the can contents either.

Can any one see any problems with this ?
Occasionally - i get a slight grainy/astringency flavour.
But it is most excellent stout
 

kingoftheharpies

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Easy to fix the astringency. DONT steep the grains overnight!!! 1 hour at 70C is fine then you can brew. When you leave grains in water to long, to much water or to hot of water polyphenols will be leeched out of the grain husks. Thats what gives the astringency. Stop doing the overnight steep and I promise you wont have this problem :D

Also, if I were you I would boil everything. If your pot cant fit everything pre-boil some water and add it to you fermenter then do your boil with what ever size pot you have. That will also increase the quality of your beer.
 

GMK

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As the grain list above is specialty malts - the light xtal being the only malt that would have any enzymes in it - why steep at 70 ?

I have read there are fors and against for boiling the wort from just speciality grains.

Against is loose colour and some flavour.

For is you sterilise and drive off any off flavours.

Also, Should you skim the hot break off in the boil ?
 

kingoftheharpies

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You steep at 70C because that temp is high enough to get all the sugars out but low enough not to get the polyphenols from the husks which produce the astringency. Dont add the malt extract to the steep. Let the grains steep for an hour, pull out the grain bag and boil. 10 min after boil starts add the extract and boil for about 60min. When you boil you will increase the color and flavor of the beer. Amino acids react with sugars to produce melanoidins (caramalization) which increase the color and flavor of the beer. Boil with get rid of off flavors/ by-products and sterilize the wort.

Yes, skim off the break.
 

Gout

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Ken i will try this brew over the weekend i think as hence i'll try the methods above. Steep grains for 1hr at 70dec, Do a boil, skiming the Hot break out, and the cooling to get a cold break.

see how i go!

with the breaks does it matter if the hot gets into the brew. I'll skim the top but surely some will get in. Should i also wirlpool at the end leave it 15 min, and try to leave the break behind via draining the wort of the top slowly? or put it all through a sive etc?
 

kingoftheharpies

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Some hot will always get into the brew...no worries just leave as much behind as possible. Yeah whirlpool at the end and let sit 15 min, covered or uncovered, as long as nothing is going to fall in. Chill first then drain off. Dont worry about the sieve, all the trub will get leftover when you transfer to your secondary.
 

slacka

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Some hot will always get into the brew...no worries just leave as much behind as possible. Yeah whirlpool at the end and let sit 15 min, covered or uncovered, as long as nothing is going to fall in. Chill first then drain off. Dont worry about the sieve, all the trub will get leftover when you transfer to your secondary.
So ... what about the cold break? I've heard that you need a cold break to remove chill haze. Is there a way to increase the cold break without a chiller?
 

browndog

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So ... what about the cold break? I've heard that you need a cold break to remove chill haze. Is there a way to increase the cold break without a chiller?
Mate, do a search on no chill on this site, heaps of brewers no chill and have no problems with chill haze. I'm more inclined to think that chill haze has a lot to do with the intensity of your boil. Good work bringing an 8yr old thread back to life though.

cheers

Browndog
 

haysie

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So ... what about the cold break? I've heard that you need a cold break to remove chill haze. Is there a way to increase the cold break without a chiller?
I get massive more amount of cold break when using kettle floccas i.e brewbrite via a chiller, no chilling I get huge amounts but have to whack the cube in the fridge for 24-48 to let it settle under the tap. Chill haze for me is more of a deteriation of the beer than an immediate issue, so if drinking relatively fresh its not an issue, over time its a real shit.
 

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