Cold break and chill haze...again

[verysupple]

Hi all,

I've been suffering a bit from chill haze lately even though I use BrewBrite in the kettle and serve at 8 - 10 C. Other than the aesthetics it doesn't seem to be a problem as I never manage to store my beer long term. It's more of a pride thing.

At the moment I use an ice bath to chill my wort down to pitching temps (for ales) and it takes 45 - 60 min.This doesn't seem to be fast enough to get a good cold break so I'm investing in the materials for an immersion chiller.

It seems that getting a good cold break is pertinent to avoiding chill haze. But after a lot of googling it's still unclear to me if it's the presence of cold break in the FV that causes it or if it's not getting a good cold break in the first place meaning all those proteins are still in solution.

My gut feeling is that chill haze is caused by the proteins being in solution because finings that are supposed to reduce chill haze work by binding to either those proteins or polyphenols and dropping them out of solution. So is it good enough to get a good cold break and let most of it through to the FV, or do you need to also keep it out of the FV?

 

[mb-squared]

Letting the cold break through to the FV is OK, maybe even good -- some argue it has lots of goodies for the yeast to munch on.

As for getting a good cold break in the first place, you need to go from boiling to pitching temps FAST. I have a counter-flow chiller, which brings my wort from boiling down to ~20C and which isn't enough to generate a good sized cold break. Thus, I immerse my HERMS coil (sitting in my HLT) with ice and send the wort on through that before hitting the FV. Now that produces a massive cold break and my beer is clear as clear can be

 

[verysupple]

How quick are you getting it down to ~20 C with your ice-HERMS setup?

I'm planning on filling my laundry sink with iced water and putting the pot in that while recirculating the same iced water through the immersion chiller. I might have to replace the water once or twice. Considering I'll only be chilling ~10 L at a time I figure that should get the temp down pretty quick.

Letting the cold break through to the FV is OK, maybe even good -- some argue it has lots of goodies for the yeast to munch on.

I'm aware of the possible benefits to allowing some cold break through. But you mean to say that getting a cold break in the first place is the important bit, and that once it's formed you've limited chill haze even if it goes through?

 

[mb-squared]

Depends on what you mean by "it". I'm able to get the wort that is passing through the CFC and then my HERMS from boiling down to approx 12C in just a few seconds, but it takes approx 15-20mins to get the whole pot down to that level. I've written about it a bit here, last two pics in this post: http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/78681-my-typical-brew-day/

Cheers,

 

[manticle]

Cold break will form in a cube -just takes a bit of time.
Have you tried polyclar or extended cc?

 

[indica86]

As for getting a good cold break in the first place, you need to go from boiling to pitching temps FAST.

So the no-chill method will not see any cold break?

 

[mb-squared]

I'm aware of the possible benefits to allowing some cold break through. But you mean to say that getting a cold break in the first place is the important bit, and that once it's formed you've limited chill haze even if it goes through?

sorry, didn't see this part of your post earlier. from my understanding, which comes from reading books, not running experiments, the cold break that forms during a rapid drop in temperature will not re-dissolve back into solution. Thus, the bigger and faster the cold break, the less chance of chill-haze. Here is what John Palmer says, for example:

Rapid cooling also forms the Cold Break. This is composed of another group of proteins that need to be thermally shocked into precipitating out of the wort. Slow cooling will not affect them. Cold break, or rather the lack of it, is the cause of Chill Haze. When a beer is chilled for drinking, these proteins partially precipitate forming a haze. As the beer warms up, the proteins re-dissolve. Only by rapid chilling from near-boiling to room temperature will the Cold Break proteins permanently precipitate and not cause Chill Haze.

The key here, for me, is his claim that "slow cooling will not affect them". That means that, while a slow cool (like you get with a cold crash) might precipitate what looks like a cold break, its likely that those proteins will re-dissolve back into solution when you warm the beer up for fermenting and then precipitate back out when you chill it to drink, causing your chill haze. But again, I'm just going on what is said in books. The no-chill folks will likely beg to differ.

 

[manticle]

Palmer's summary is incorrect. You do not need to thermally 'shock' proteins into precipitating. They form below a certain temperature whether quickly chilled or slowly. Even cold conditioning a beer long enough is sufficient.

Thirsty Boy particularly has provided some useful info on this VS when similar questions have been asked. I asked about processes required to remove chill haze without polyclar some time ago - his and some other answers (such as sufficient clacium) were interesting. Also on the brewing network and elsewhere there have been some good discussions to which TB has contributed.

Search through some of the top linked discussions (includes the discussions I'm referring to):

http://www.google.com.au/search?q=chill+haze+no+chill&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-au:IE-Address&ie=&oe=

Also in the discussion I raised (3rd link down) someone posted a link to a discussion on haze by Dr Bamforth who I regard very highly. I need to listen again to the podcast but I am confident it will have some useful info for you.

No chill beers do not need to suffer chill haze any more than chilled ones. By the way - how confident are you that it is chill haze and not some other kind of haze?

 

[manticle]

Just a thought: I ferment on my cold break but if you're one of those types who transfers their wort after nc, you could try chilling the wort right down to force those proteins to precipitate out, then transfer carefully. By chill I mean nc as normal, overnight to ambient temp, then refrigerate to get to 2 deg.

Try that with no cold conditioning, try it with cold conditioning, try it with both and compare.

It's the temperature, not the rapidity of the temperature drop that makes the proteins coagulate. Then time to enable gravity to do its work.

 

[dent]

you need to go from boiling to pitching temps FAST

This, I reckon, is one of the few disservices Palmer has done for brewing. It is a load of crap IMO. I have tried chilling both slow and fast (with dual plate chillers and ice water) and have found no relationship to the development of chill haze in the finished beer.

Nothing wrong with chilling, just the speed has nothing to do with it.

 

[mb-squared]

I'm happy to accept that Palmer is full of crap on this one. I'm certainly not going to spend any energy trying to convert no-chillers to become chillers. But I'd be interested in hearing what the big boys do (i.e. those running micro-breweries). Does anyone know? They have presumably done all the cost-benefit analyses needed here to figure out if chilling or no-chilling works out best for them in terms of getting out the very best product for the fewest dollars. Anyone know how they get their boiling wort down to pitching temps?

 

[dent]

I'm not trying to make this a chill vs no-chill thing - just the difference between 100 to 8 degrees in five minutes, instead of 100 to 40 in five minutes and then 40 to 5 in several hours.

 

[Bribie G]

I get heaps of cold break no-chilling.

The chill haze apparently comes from polyphenols in the boil that are not really associated with cold break, and using BrewBright ( MHB's version ) I don't get chill haze when it's fresh, but both Brewbrite and BrewBright can go a bit "slack" after a few months and when I get towards the end of the tub I do experience some chill haze.

 

[verysupple]

Thanks for the info, guys.

Cold break will form in a cube -just takes a bit of time.
Have you tried polyclar or extended cc?

Yes, I always use BrewBrite with 10 min left in the boil which is essentially Polyclar and carageenan in one. "Extended" is subjective but I've been CCing at 0 C for between 5 and 12 days lately. The beer has a lot of chill haze at that temp, unsurprisingly, and goes away when it warms up in the bottles.

By the way - how confident are you that it is chill haze and not some other kind of haze?

I'm pretty sure it's chill haze as the beer is crystal clear when it's warm before I put it in the fridge for serving, then has a haze when I pour it, but goes away again if I let it warm up again.

The chill haze apparently comes from polyphenols in the boil that are not really associated with cold break, and using BrewBright ( MHB's version ) I don't get chill haze when it's fresh, but both Brewbrite and BrewBright can go a bit "slack" after a few months and when I get towards the end of the tub I do experience some chill haze.

Yep, polyphenols are half of the cause, but as you probably know, chill haze is formed when polyphenols combine with certain proteins to make a protein-polyphenol complex. Apparently cold break precipitates the proteins involved in these reactions so a good cold break should help. BrewBrite works on both fronts by aiding both protein and polyphenol precipitation. My BrewBrite was getting on a bit, so maybe it did go a bit slack. I opened a new packet last time I brewed so I'll see if that batch has less chill haze when it's ready to drink.


I'm glad to hear that it's the temperature it reaches that matters and not the speed in which it gets there. However I'll still build a chiller purely to save time on brew day. I like to pitch my yeast on the same day and get everything out of the way. Also I like having a project to work on.

 

[manticle]

I meant have you tried polyclar on the finished beer as well/instead of brewbrite?

I know that brewbrite contains the PVVP but if you're getting the problem post fermentation, a post fermentation fining material to target proteins makes sense.

If trying CC to remove protein, you need them to form then clump, then drop out. maybe try drawing a sample off and seeing how long it takes to clear and remain clear at fridge temps?

 

[Not For Horses]

I'm happy to accept that Palmer is full of crap on this one. I'm certainly not going to spend any energy trying to convert no-chillers to become chillers. But I'd be interested in hearing what the big boys do (i.e. those running micro-breweries). Does anyone know? They have presumably done all the cost-benefit analyses needed here to figure out if chilling or no-chilling works out best for them in terms of getting out the very best product for the fewest dollars. Anyone know how they get their boiling wort down to pitching temps?

Most that I have seen use plate chillers similar to those in dairies some with glycol and some with just water.

 

[Black n Tan]

Just a little off topic, how do people make up their Brewbrite. I have previously used whirl floc but someone suggested I try Brewbrite for my lagers. So I bought some from G&G and followed the instructions, which said to add it directly to the boil 10 minutes before the end. So I did just that, added the powder directly toy the boil, and it just turned into one big pump of plastic floating on the surface. My Boh Pils now looks more like a Witbier even after 4 weeks at -1C. I look up the manufacturers info and they say can be added directly or made up in a slurry before adding to the boil. So do you guys make up as a Brewbrite slurry or add powder directly to the boil?

 

[verysupple]

I mix mine in a mug of warm water to dissolve it first and get rid of the clumps. It tends to clump up again if you let it sit so I give it another quick stir right before I add it the the boil.

 

[Dips Me Lid]

http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/572

This might be the podcast with Charlie Bamforth that Manticle was referring to, it's got a lot of good info on all types of haze.

He talks about chill haze and suggests that taking the beer to -1c for a day or two effectively drops out chill haze compounds and by keeping it cold throughout transfer/filtration it doesn't allow the haze to start reforming in the beer.

 

[dicko]

Just a little off topic, how do people make up their Brewbrite. I have previously used whirl floc but someone suggested I try Brewbrite for my lagers. So I bought some from G&G and followed the instructions, which said to add it directly to the boil 10 minutes before the end. So I did just that, added the powder directly toy the boil, and it just turned into one big pump of plastic floating on the surface. My Boh Pils now looks more like a Witbier even after 4 weeks at -1C. I look up the manufacturers info and they say can be added directly or made up in a slurry before adding to the boil. So do you guys make up as a Brewbrite slurry or add powder directly to the boil?

I found exactly the same thing when I first used Brewbrite.

I now slurry in 200 mils of water and add at 5 minutes which works for me.
I tried it once in water that was prepared for my sparge and the Brewbrite set like a jelly so only cold water for me

I dont think it is off topic as if the Brewbrite is not working properly as a dry addition then that may be not helping elimination of the chill haze.

Cheers