Christmas Island Drownings.

[bum]

I'm not doubting your intentions nor your motivations - I'm sure what you say is genuine. I guess I was just making a wry joke about all-capsing 'NEVER EVER' and 'EVER AGAIN' in a statement about being eternally open-minded.

Perhaps it's just me.

 

[_HOME_BREW_WALLACE_]

I'm not doubting your intentions nor your motivations - I'm sure what you say is genuine. I guess I was just making a wry joke about all-capsing 'NEVER EVER' and 'EVER AGAIN' in a statement about being eternally open-minded.

Perhaps it's just me.

:icon_cheers: Your right mate! :beerbang:

 

[Zizzle]

1. Do not watch, "A Current Affair," and "Today Tonight": I don't mind writing here that most of what these programs display are at least contrived and sometimes, totally fraudulent. (An old next door neighbour of mine was actually paid to appear on one of the programs as being someone who won a million dollars in the Lottery and then, "lost it all." It was all pure bullshit.)

2. Watch "Media Watch" religiously: If you think the above experience of mine is incredible (can't be believed), watch this program.

3. Go to the ABC Website: We should be very proud of the ABC. The ABC journalists often risk their lives to report a story accurately. You will learn a lot more from 'Four Corners' and 'Foreign Correspondent' than from 'Today Tonight' or 'A Current Affair.' (It is the ABC who is responsible for there even being a possibility of the smugglers on this boat being arrested.)

So, do some research and get informed.

Pat, interesting posts.

I'm must say I was surprised and encouraged by them.

You see, I remember a particular rainy day about 4 years ago, after a few beers sitting in a tent in Gold Coast yard, you paining some pretty contrived scenarios and being thoroughly convinced that I should be drafted and sent off to fight the war on terror.

I think we have all subsequently seen how that has worked out, and that the war was based on a bunch of lies and manipulations. All those lives lost has done nothing to enhance our security, and maybe even made us more of a target.

I had you pegged for having bought the mainstream media line, hook-line-and-sinker. As a "conservative" who could think only in black and white. Wrong or right. Evil doers and good guys, as Bush and the media had painted the whole situation at the time.


So it's encouraging to see you thinking in some shades of gray. And not vilifying those that disagree.


I fully support the idea of people thinking more. Asking more questions. Looking into to more than just the sound-bites and good-vs-bad media beatups.
Now, whether that's a realistic expectation is another question. People don't like to think. The truth is, the majority of people like VB, McDonalds, and media stories that make them feel righteous. And that my friends is where the advertising dollar are.

I'm reading a book call The Black Swan at the moment. About improbable events setting the direction of everything. A good read.
In the start he talks about how humans have evolved. Thinking is expensive. Stand around thinking when you see a lion and you probably don't get to reproduce. Take an emotional quick decision to run away fast and you probably will. So we have a genetic tendency to avoid thinking.

My extrapolation is that a lot of the world is built around exploiting that. Advertising, capitalism and democracy. The less you think the more easily you are manipulated.

Anyway, back closer to topic, it's not hard to find some facts. I remember this going around at election time:

 

[staggalee]

1. Do not watch, "A Current Affair," and "Today Tonight": I don't mind writing here that most of what these programs display are at least contrived and sometimes, totally fraudulent. (An old next door neighbour of mine was actually paid to appear on one of the programs as being someone who won a million dollars in the Lottery and then, "lost it all." It was all pure bullshit.)

Those "current affairs" programs have a lot to answer for, all right.
Can you give us more details like which program it was, when it went to air, why they chose your neighbour as the patsy, and anything else that might help to track down that fiasco?
Sometimes I like to check these things out myself.
{it would have been funny if the neighbour then went to the other channel with his story about how he was put up to it, and got paid from them as well.... 2 paydays instead of one} :lol:
'

 

[PistolPatch]

A quick post for now [Edit: What can I say?] as I still have to do some more work. Knowing me, I\'ll probably write some more long-winded stuff later after a few wind-down beers. Before I get in that frame of mind just want to say...

RexBanner: Meant to send you a PM but thanks very much for your post. It was very much appreciated.

Jayse: Too many good points to even comment on. I am just really pleased I have never made a mistake or written atrocious posts on a forum . (I have done my fair share.)

WALLACE: Great story. Really enjoyed the read. I have a similar one so know what you are talking about.

Zizzle: Thanks for taking the time to find that link. As for us concluding we thought it was justified sending you to war B), I think this hit you so hard, you forgot our reasoning. Without going into detail, we weren\'t convinced with what the governments were telling us but we were convinced that a lot of people were suffering. Doing something (at the time) we thought was the right thing to do. Ignoring the suffering was not the right thing to do. You may or may not remember that I would prefer to see useless old bastards like myself being sent to war rather than young healthy buggers like yourself. No easy answers on this issue but that whole conversation was all about making a conscious decision to do something or nothing. Most \'doing nothing\' decisions are made unconsciously and they have tremendous ramifications. Conscious, active decisions by an individual can make a big difference. That conversation we had ended up asking you if you would be prepared to make a decision to shoot down a plane full of 200 passengers that was about to crash into a building and kill thousands. You were paralysed by this decision and refused to shoot the plane down. There might be good reasons for doing this but avoiding responsibility is not one. A lot of people will go to great lengths to avoid responsibility. My opinion, as I said on that day, was that people who avoid responsibility are more dangerous than what we might call \"evil\" people. A \'mass\' of irresponsible people are what allow evil people to reign.

That is what we were talking about.

staggalee: I could try and source the date etc of that A Current Affairs program. The guy\'s picture is actually in Post #11 of this thread. (Sorry, direct link wouldn\'t work.) He\'s in one of the later pictures, the guy in the red T-shirt. My old neighbour and a lovely bloke. From memory, I didn\'t believe him at the time and he pulled out an old photo album that I am sure had proof - lol!

But, there was a Media Watch program about four years ago that showed how one of those programs did exactly what you were referring to. On one \"show\" they had \"John\" telling everyone how much viagra or whatever had changed his life. A year later, \"John\" was now \"Bob\" and was telling us how some weight loss pill had changed his life.

Seriously, just download say the last four programs of Media Watch and you will see the proof. Maybe search for Kate Ritchie\'s \"wedding.\" That will give you a bit of an idea about what the media gets away with but there are a lot more serious issues at stake...

Zizzle's link takes two minutes to watch. Two minutes watching that is a lot more worthwhile than reading my posts which must take ten minutes to read :huh:.

Apologies that this short post wasn\'t one. Apologies to those who have written some great posts here for not saying, \"That was an excellent post!\"

Better go and finish my work now but one final apology...

A lot of my posts do require a lot of time and thinking by me. My intentions when starting a post are always pretty altruistic. I usually start them while having a beer and winding down. I have often stuffed them up in the end after the hundredth re-write. This is because, after a few beers, I am far more interested sometimes in making myself look altruistic, intelligent, good or right etc., or sometimes just get plain exhausted or frustrated trying to get it right.

I have done this a tad in this thread as well I think (especially on Saturday when my posts were written after a Christmas Party that started at midday.)

Hope I got a bit right and more importantly, thanks for all your good posts/reads. I have no idea how you guys manage to make great points in a tenth of the space that I flounder around in.

Maybe you guys stop and think before you post?
:blink: Pat

 

[InCider]

Looks a good read Zizzle.

 

[Zizzle]

Zizzle: Thanks for taking the time to find that link. As for us concluding we thought it was justified sending you to war B), I think this hit you so hard, you forgot our reasoning. Without going into detail, we weren\'t convinced with what the governments were telling us but we were convinced that a lot of people were suffering. Doing something (at the time) we thought was the right thing to do. Ignoring the suffering was not the right thing to do. You may or may not remember that I would prefer to see useless old bastards like myself being sent to war rather than young healthy buggers like yourself. No easy answers on this issue but that whole conversation was all about making a conscious decision to do something or nothing. Most \'doing nothing\' decisions are made unconsciously and they have tremendous ramifications. Conscious, active decisions by an individual can make a big difference. That conversation we had ended up asking you if you would be prepared to make a decision to shoot down a plane full of 200 passengers that was about to crash into a building and kill thousands. You were paralysed by this decision and refused to shoot the plane down. There might be good reasons for doing this but avoiding responsibility is not one. A lot of people will go to great lengths to avoid responsibility. My opinion, as I said on that day, was that people who avoid responsibility are more dangerous than what we might call \"evil\" people. A \'mass\' of irresponsible people are what allow evil people to reign.

Pat, I think you missed my point entirely.

Your scenario smacks of today tonight tactics. Thinking in blacks and white, retrospect. Proposing a scenario with a known outcome. If you know that a plane is hijacked and going to crash into a building then the answer is easy. Of course, sacrifice the few to save the many. Black and white. Right and wrong.

The problem is, in real life, you have the greys, you don't know the certain outcome when you have to make the call on shooting down the jet liner.

In fact, there are 2 things making air travel much safer than before september 2001. And it's not the security theater at the airport. 1) Cockpit doors are now locked and better reinforced. 2) The mindset of passengers has changed. People know that they have to fight back now.

So the scenario is not clear cut. If you know the a plane is hijacked and flying near NY now, there is a pretty good chance it won't be flying into any buildings.

There is a difference between being paralysed to make the decision and recognising the scenario is bogus, that in real life you don't have all the information.

 

[PistolPatch]

LOL Zizzle. If you wanted a response, you now have one. I didn't intend to reply because I actually didn't know how to after thinking on it sober. I'm going to weaken now as I finished work today at 3pm and then ripped up the floor and pulled out the kitchen in my place ready for new ones. I am now surrounded in dust and just realised that I have no oven to cook the take-away that I bought earlier today.

The reason I couldn't think of how to respond to your post when sober was that I couldn't work out a way of doing it without it in some way reflecting on you badly. But, rest-assured, I have actually consciously thought about how to respond to your post in a way that would give you at least, some credit for the last two days. I couldn't find one.

Now that I have had a few beers, I have forgotten about the Christmas Island drownings and am thinking about me and how offensive and inaccurate I find your posts and how I have continually gone out of my way (and usually succeed) in not openly criticising your posts.

I find you impossible to reason with. I actually have no idea what goes on inside your head....

I spent 14 years as a public speaker talking on the importance of how a decision is not a decision unless it is grey. Unless you are suicidal, there is no decision to be made as to whether you should cross a road two seconds before a bus or if 2+2 = 4 or 5.

I distinctly remember telling you about the difference between "grey areas" and "black and white areas" but your post above makes it look as though I have never heard of the terms before. When I taught seminars, teaching people how to make a decision (in other words, taking conscious decisions without all the information) was the only point I was really interested in getting across.

And here you are trying to tell me a third of what I was trying (along with the others) to teach you that day.

The third and hardest point in making a decision is considering possible outcomes. If you could accurately predict this, then it is not a decision.

I once told a suicidal girl to make a decision to live or die. I said to her, quite casually, "Just make a decision. It makes no difference to anyone in the long run if you live or die. We are all just actors in a big play. You can choose to play a part and make a bit of a difference but the play will still go on without you."

Offering such advice would be totally wrong in many instances. In fact, I think I have only offered it so directly to two or three people. (Most people I would advise in a totally different way.)

I could have chosen other courses in dealing with this girl. Most people would have chosen avoidance. In this case, I made a conscious decision to offer this "challenging" advice. It all worked out very well (and still is) but...

If she had gone and knocked herself off the next day, I would have, obviously felt that my advice was responsible. It would have bowled me over and I would have felt it very deeply.

In reality though, if she knocked herself off and I was a perfect thinker, I should have just said, "Did I act responsibly?" The answer would be yes.

There are some things in life you can never answer. That is fact. Bothering about them (giving them your consciousness) is what being human is all about.

If I was a perfect thinker Zizzle, I would smile and say, about you, "At least the bit about grey areas sank in. Give him another few years/lifetimes and he will 'get' the rest."

In other words, if I was a perfect thinker, I would feel no anger at your posts. It's pretty rare but Zizzle, any time I have thought on your last post, let alone some of your prior ones, my main emotions have been anger and frustration.

The angry me would say to you, "Don't you ever question me on how to make decisions and what the difference between black and white and grey areas is." "Don't profess to know that you know even a tenth about life of what I know even though you are half my age." There is a lot more that I know I don't know than you do boy and. given my experience, I don't think you will ever see. The above is one of countless examples.

The angry me would also really resent your writings because they distract me from thinking well and in the manner I should. I usually am a well-intentioned thinker/poster but the above post won't reflect this, will it?

My personal opinion is that posts like yours are actually stealing. Posts like yours steal or distract other's thinking. They add no value.

So maybe, like me, think for a few days before you post back or, if the above makes no sense, then don't. (I was going to say email me but an illogical email correspondence is the last thing I need.)

I actually think that my post here actually does add value. I feel okay about it so the good side of me would say thanks for providing the impetus. The bad side would think, "It's stolen my time and I do resent this."

I am not going to re-read and edit this post so take it as you will. Hopefully though, we will get back to talking about the grey area the thread is about. Can we make a difference? I think the only difference we can make is perhaps by adding awareness - more information so as things become less grey.

So, people like Zizzle taking the time to add links to something that might educate and inform the rest of us is positive. (With a bit of luck Zizzle, people will skip the body of this post and think you are a great bloke as it is the second time I have given you thanks. So, as Jonas in Summer Heights says, "Luck you!""

Spot ya,
Pat

 

[PistolPatch]

Whoops, I forgot to mention the fourth aspect of decision making - time. Can't believe I forgot this (distracted a tad in trying to explain the really basic stuff )

The time dimension is hugely important in many decisions.

Sometimes, the correct decision is to do nothing or delay. Very often this is sensible. More often, this is not a good strategy as no more information is likely to be forthcoming.

Making a, 'conscious' decision' to do nothing or delay is as hard as any other choice. Too often though, people choose to wait in the hope (or more common, apathetic expectation) that more information will appear.

Most people do nothing. It is easy and way too easily excused. It gives them an excuse to be a spectator.

30 or so people drowning on Christmas Island, in a way, is not that important. A lot of other stuff happens as has been mentioned. There are, in fact, atrocities occurring every time I hit a letter on my keyboard. What 30 or so people's hopes getting obliterated offers us though is a chance to start thinking better. It gives us another chance at empathy/union which is certainly a major prelude to bliss/satori which is a state any individual is very lucky to experience even once in a lifetime.

 

[Zizzle]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

 

[goomboogo]

Pat, I have no issue with the aspects of decision making you have outlined. As you say, it's quite basic. However, I am concerned that Zizzle's post has seemingly angered you to such an extent. A large gap exists between frustration and anger but a gap many people manage to bridge quite easily. I am sure you know kensho is unlikely whilst such a bridge is in place.

I wish you well.

 

[PistolPatch]

Don't worry goom, the anger and frustration are more along the lines of those you experience when trying to solve a particularly irritating crossword puzzle :lol:.

Have a great Christmas / New Year. Cheers,
Pat

 

[MarkBastard]

welcome new australian!