Chilling cube in river stream

[technobabble66]

@ lyrebird cycles,
Any particular reason why you'd assume the oils *don't* bind into the wort?

Certainly the fact they're oils and have a low solubility isn't a justification for this. In fact it's part of why it's even more important for the binding to occur.

Given its all very complex, and mostly there's just conjecture on what happens in boiling wort & what contributes to the various elements of the beers, it seems a big leap to assume aromatic oils that clearly can be detected by human olfactory senses would not contribute to flavour compounds, and in likelihood could be some of the most important precursors.
I'd be guessing your belief the polyphenols/glycosides contribute significantly to the overall chemistry is correct. However I'd also assume the oils ~equally contribute.
I believe there's many examples of oils also contributing to the flavour profile of plant products, especially where floral, fruity flavour are present.
I'd simply suggest all of these compounds would contribute to what is an incredibly complex bit of chemistry.

Similarly, happy to be corrected [emoji6]

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

@ lyrebird cycles,
Any particular reason why you'd assume the oils *don't* bind into the wort?

Ockham's razor applies: if there's no need for oil binding in wort and no evidence for it, the parsimonious assumption is that it doesn't occur.

Certainly the fact they're oils and have a low solubility isn't a justification for this. In fact it's part of why it's even more important for the binding to occur.

You seem to be affirming the consequent here.

Given its all very complex, and mostly there's just conjecture on what happens in boiling wort & what contributes to the various elements of the beers, it seems a big leap to assume aromatic oils that clearly can be detected by human olfactory senses would not contribute to flavour compounds, and in likelihood could be some of the most important precursors.

I did not say that aromatic oils do not contribute to flavour, they are a very important part of hop flavour especially for late hops which is what we are discussing. I said I do not think they bind to anything in wort.

I'd be guessing your belief the polyphenols/glycosides contribute significantly to the overall chemistry is correct. However I'd also assume the oils ~equally contribute.
I believe there's many examples of oils also contributing to the flavour profile of plant products, especially where floral, fruity flavour are present.
I'd simply suggest all of these compounds would contribute to what is an incredibly complex bit of chemistry.

Similarly, happy to be corrected [emoji6]

No need to guess, it's been shown to be correct by several studies.

Again I am not disputing that oils contribute to flavour. I am disputing that the binding mechanism you mentioned is responsible for their presence.

It is known that there is siginificant carriage of lipids and fatty acids from malt and hops through to final wort, see for instance JIB 91:5 Lipids in Wort.

Hop oils are less hydrophobic than these compounds: Myrcene for instance has a log KOW* of 4.33, Linolenic acid (mentioned in reference cited as extracting from hops to wort) is 6.46 so it's a hundred times less soluble..

We know that lipid carriage is by simple dissolution, this is therefore likely to be the case for hop oils as well.

*KOW is the octane / water partition coefficient, usually expressed as a log to base 10. For example a log KOW of 6.0 means that 1 part in 106 (=1,000,000) will stay in the water rather than the octane when equal quantities are mixed. High number = highly hydrophobic.

If you are familiar with the old EBC isooctane extraction method of measuring IBU, you'll be familiar with the concept: it's how the shaky shaky extraction step works.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

EDIT: so (again, fwiw) i prefer to leave my cubes to slowly cool on their own and then compensate/calculate the effect this has on bitterness, rather than try to speed their cooling. This is to maximise the chemistry that is theoretically occurring/required to incorporate the oils into the wort.

Wwweeellll......That depends on what you are making.

A beer that doesnt have any noticable or needs any late hopping is very suited to slow chilling/No chilling. Stout, Porter, Scottish, Pale Ale are all great for slow/no chill

BUT

If you want to make a crisp flavor profile, especially using noble hops then I prefer faster the better to preserve that flavour and aroma profile


But back to original question.

Yes, if you sanitise everything properly then your wort will last many, many weeks

 

[Lethaldog]

I'm really interested and trying but this thread is really headfucking me [emoji19][emoji19] I'm off to have a beer cos I can't science[emoji106][emoji106][emoji57]

 

[technobabble66]

:icon_offtopic:

@ LC,
Oxidation of aromatic oil fractions to produce flavour compound derivatives sound familiar?

You may be correct.
I just think that on one hand we're saying the chemistry is soooo complex that scientists have spent decades studying it and are still only scratching the surface.
But on the other hand, you're saying that in spite of that you're fairly sure that a significant spectrum of ~300 compounds *definitely* do not undergo chemical transformation that may likely involve other wort compounds.
The simple oils definitely contribute flavour & aroma, but it still seems a leap to assume with all the complex chemistry going on, all of those 300-odd compounds just sit around twiddling their thumbs. In fact, TBH, that doesn't really make any sense at all. Especially considering the oxidised derivatives of the volatile compounds are recognised as contributing significantly to flavour, and that many of the other plant-derived compounds floating around in the wort are oxidising reagents. Seems pretty likely they'll get together at some point.


Really, i s'pose the bottom line is that cube hopping *probably* captures more of the volatile oils, and remains at high-ish temps so that further flavour development occurs. As to exactly what is happening to do the latter, that'll remain open to speculation for a while longer

 

[Vini2ton]

I'm really interested and trying but this thread is really headfucking me [emoji19][emoji19] I'm off to have a beer cos I can't science[emoji106][emoji106][emoji57]

I had Cyndi Lauper doin girls just wanna have fun ringing in my head as I was reading it.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Its really easy

No chill adds 15mins to you hop times, so even hops thrown on the kettle at flameout will still isomerise for up to 15minutes, effectivly becoming a 10-15min hop addition

The faster you chill the better you will be able top keep the hop addition times, so a flameout addition will still taste crisp

 

[technobabble66]

@ DS, yeah I'd def agree that leaving a cube to slowly cool with some of those New World "rougher" hops (eg: galaxy) seems to be great at drawing out a bitey astringency (polyphenols?). Not sure about the Noble hops.
I think the consensus is if you can get it all right, a chiller is best for capturing hops flavour/aroma, esp in that you avoid that grassy astringency.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Really, i s'pose the bottom line is that cube hopping *probably* captures more of the volatile oils, and remains at high-ish temps so that further flavour development occurs. As to exactly what is happening to do the latter, that'll remain open to speculation for a while longer

Back in the dark ages, there where a few of us militant no chill brewers, almost outlaws, heretics you could say

Anyway, apart from the fame, the one thing we all noticed was that the bitterness profile changed, so after much experimenting ( this means brewing ) we worked out that Slow/No chill added roughly 10-15min on to your hop addition times. so we adjusted recipes to suit

And then someone clever took our knowledge and added it to a number of brewing programs, so now everyone can work out what to do

Just remember to adjust your recipe top suit which type of chilling you do

 

[Black Devil Dog]

And then someone clever took our knowledge and added it to a number of brewing programs, so now everyone can work out what to do

I was hoping Beersmith might have done that in their latest upgrade, but it seems not. (That I can see at least)

I suspect a lot of Yanks still view no chill as heresy.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

I suspect a lot of Yanks still view no chill as heresy.

They are still getting their heads around BIAB....and that is near 10yr old

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

@ LC,
Oxidation of aromatic oil fractions to produce flavour compound derivatives sound familiar?

Yes

I just think that on one hand we're saying the chemistry is soooo complex that scientists have spent decades studying it and are still only scratching the surface.
But on the other hand, you're saying that in spite of that you're fairly sure that a significant spectrum of ~300 compounds *definitely* do not undergo chemical transformation that may likely involve other wort compounds. The simple oils definitely contribute flavour & aroma, but it still seems a leap to assume with all the complex chemistry going on, all of those 300-odd compounds just sit around twiddling their thumbs.

No I have never said that, it's obviously not correct. I specifically said that I do not believe that the hop oils bind to compounds in the wort.

In fact, TBH, that doesn't really make any sense at all. Especially considering the oxidised derivatives of the volatile compounds are recognised as contributing significantly to flavour, and that many of the other plant-derived compounds floating around in the wort are oxidising reagents. Seems pretty likely they'll get together at some point.

We were not discussing oxidation, we were discussing binding. As noted, plenty of evidence for oxidation.

Really, i s'pose the bottom line is that cube hopping *probably* captures more of the volatile oils, and remains at high-ish temps so that further flavour development occurs. As to exactly what is happening to do the latter, that'll remain open to speculation for a while longer

Agreed entirely.

Look it probably comes down to us using the word "binding" in different senses. We were talking about hop chemistry and in chemistry "binding" has a very specific meaning.

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

Its really easy

No chill adds 15mins to you hop times, so even hops thrown on the kettle at flameout will still isomerise for up to 15minutes, effectivly becoming a 10-15min hop addition

The faster you chill the better you will be able top keep the hop addition times, so a flameout addition will still taste crisp

Not exactly, it depends on the rate of cooling.

If you take a look at my hop addition calculator it can be used to make a decent estimate of isomerisation in a "no chill" scenario by making a step wise linear approximation of the logarithmic cooling curve, you just need to know the time to reach two intermediate temperatures, 80 oC and 50 oC are convenient.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Seat of the pants brewing is all I need.... B)

 

[technobabble66]

... Look it probably comes down to us using the word "binding" in different senses. We were talking about hop chemistry and in chemistry "binding" has a very specific meaning.

Yep, i wasn't being quite so technical/specific.
I was talking in more general terms, so you could probably sub in "chemically react to produce new derivative compounds" or just "chemically react".
Just trying to keep it a bit more simple for those on the forum who haven't done a degree in chemistry or Biochemistry

So when you say "I specifically said that I do not believe that the hop oils bind to compounds in the wort" I assumed you meant "I specifically said that I do not believe that the hop oils chemically react with compounds in the wort."
If that's *not* what you're saying, then we're all peachy!! :lol: A bit of miscommunication!

... If it *is* what you're saying, then we'll probably have to agree to disagree. Fwiw, I'm guessing we'll probably be recommending similar things/processes anyway, just for different reasons.

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

Yep. The evidence for flavour compound reactions in hot wort appears to be clear and unequivocable: adding hops at different times affects their flavour profile (this is considering flavour apart from bitterness due to isomerisation).

If I'd twigged earlier that this was essentially semantics, we could have saved ourselves a whole bunch of time. Oh well.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Yep. The evidence for flavour compound reactions in hot wort appears to be clear and unequivocable: adding hops at different times affects their flavour profile (this is considering flavour apart from bitterness due to isomerisation).

We worked that out before Duo Core CPU's where readily available

 

[mash head]

Man!
Do any of you guys ever sit back and wonder ? Am I over thinking this?
Although my eyes have been opened to something I have never thought of.
And maybe now I am thinking too much.
I reckon a cold stream would be good.

 

[technobabble66]

I reckon a cold beer would be good.

FTFY


RDWAHAHB B)

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

I reckon a cold stream would be good.

As good as a swimming pool