Chill Haze

[Sean]

There you go, Ross. A solution. Move to Victoria where the climate is like England so you can serve your beers warmer.

I don't think you could describe Mildura's climate as 'like England'.

I believe that 2C is a touch cold for any beer (at that temp your tastebuds are pretty much inactive), but it seems insane to me to keep a keg fridge at 11. Sorry Sean, it's just not Australian.

I realise that, but an English beer served at 8C does not taste like an English beer. I'm not going to great effort to recreate good English ales, just to ruin them in the fridge.

But, trying not to completely derail the thread:

I don't keep my beer at 2c, if you read my post, it's CCing at 2c - My comment was that this malt is causing haze & I was very upset as I've done an Oktoberfest with it for the xmas case - not happy giving everyone a hazy beer, as this should be served chilled...

I realise that - the point I was driving at was that using English malts for a beer intended to be served cold may not be the wisest move for this very reason. Any UK brewer brewing such a beer would expect to have to do extra processing to avoid chill-hazes.

 

[AndrewQLD]

I realise that - the point I was driving at was that using English malts for a beer intended to be served cold may not be the wisest move for this very reason. Any UK brewer brewing such a beer would expect to have to do extra processing to avoid chill-hazes.

Sean, can you elaborate on the processes that you mentioned above to avoid chill hazes, that might be the type of info Ross is after.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Ross]

I realise that - the point I was driving at was that using English malts for a beer intended to be served cold may not be the wisest move for this very reason. Any UK brewer brewing such a beer would expect to have to do extra processing to avoid chill-hazes.

Sean, can you elaborate on the processes that you mentioned above to avoid chill hazes, that might be the type of info Ross is after.

Cheers
Andrew

[post="80536"][/post]​

Please do Sean - Exactly the question i was asking

 

[Sean]

I realise that - the point I was driving at was that using English malts for a beer intended to be served cold may not be the wisest move for this very reason. Any UK brewer brewing such a beer would expect to have to do extra processing to avoid chill-hazes.

Sean, can you elaborate on the processes that you mentioned above to avoid chill hazes, that might be the type of info Ross is after.

Cheers
Andrew

[post="80536"][/post]​

Unfortunately, that's where my knowledge stops - it's not an area I've explored in detail as none of the micro-breweries I had close contact with produced lagers, but I would imagine that those that do chill-filter in some way. The larger breweries all pasturise and process to death everything except their real-ales.

 

[PostModern]

My apologies, Sean. I don't knnw what got into me last night.

Apologies to Ross for derailing the thread, too.

I think I was just reacting to Sean dismissing the problem of chill haze because no ale should be served below 11C. I tend to see red at blanket statements. Again, apologies to all, and I'll now bow out of this thread and retreat to the naughty corner for a while.

 

[PeterS]

Hi Ross,
Some info:
http://www.gracedavison.com/products/fcph/...ar/chillhaz.htm
Taken from above link
More about Chill-Haze & Chill-Proofing

The clarity of beer is an important factor influencing consumer acceptance. The presence of haze in beer is usually associated with inferior quality. Haze in beer is, however, a natural phenomenon and proper treatment is required to prevent or delay its formation.
Upon storage for one to three weeks, beer develops a cloudiness, which is only observable at about 0o and which completely re-dissolves if the temperature of the beer rises. This type of haze is called "chill-haze" and measures taken for its prevention are referred to as "chill-proofing".
The two most important classes of compounds involved in chill-haze formation are proteins and polyphenols. The molecular weights (MW) of the proteins cover a wide range of about 1,000 to 1,000,000. They contribute to the mouthfeel and foam retention characteristics of the beer. The molecular weights of polyphenols range from 100 to several thousands with a very wide range of molecular structures. Polyphenols impart certain flavour characteristics and act as natural antioxidants preserving the original taste of beer.
Chill-haze is formed by the combination of "haze-sensitive" proteins with "haze-sensitive" polyphenols, mainly via hydrogen bonding. Haze-sensitive means that certain proteins have a higher tendency to form complexes with polyphenols and vice versa.
Chill-proofing can be achieved by selective removal of "haze-sensitive" proteins. DARACLAR beer stabilizing agents are synthetic silica gels of high purity and consistent quality, which selectively remove proteins that participate in chill-haze and not those responsible for beer foam or mouthfeel.


And an interesting discussion here http://probrewer.com/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-2911.html
Probably not much help but it's all the info I have.

Cheers
Andrew
Edited to add link

[post="80416"][/post]​

Andrew, I would like to thank you for directing an interested observer, who does not have any particular input in to this subject to the links provided. I would say that reading the links that you referred me gave me a better understanding of chill haze. Your selective amplification of the important quotes were very helpfull. Whilst others preferred to direct us to a different environment between England and Australia I do understand that our indevidual tastes or the way we were brought up does influence our preferred serving temperature. This difference however, does not help me in trying to find how to rectify the problem of chill haze. As to how to overcome it is another matter, never the less it is obvious to me that the choice of selection of grains might be an influencing factor in this country, for it was not originally malted for our climate and preferred serving temperature.

Sorry Ross, I have no suggestions for you as I note that some users have no problems with the Bairds Malt. Personally, I have not used it to date, but from all reports, I might not want to use it in the future either judging from all the reports./ In that respect, thank you for the warning....

:beer:
PeterS....

 

[Jazzafish]

After all that...

Perhaps the yeast and malt combination needs to be considered, rather than just the malt.

I mean, from what I have picked up , it is all related.

It may not be a direct answer, but it may be worth looking into it?

Obviously Ross, after reading posts on your filters and all that, you are a fan of a clear beer! All good there...

But even if the idea was slammed by others, some styles should be cloudy and contain the protiens and whatevers there making a chill haze. Filtering the chill haze agents out will probally have a big affect on the taste? Alter the style? A step towards the mentality and results from comanies like Lion Nathan?

Wow, I quickly went on a tangent too... BACK ON TOPIC!

Ross has a chill haze issue and wants it fixed!

I'm interested and looking into preventing chill haze, and fixing a brew with chill haze. Hopefully I can find something to help you Ross.

 

[Jazzafish]

So Far...

Hotside airation plays a role in it
http://oz.craftbrewer.org/Library/Methods/...r/HSAmash.shtml

This stuff filters it out, a bit more on this site to look at
http://www.gracedavison.com/Products/fcph/...ar/Benefits.htm

Acid Levels maybe?
http://www.gracedavison.com/Products/fcph/...ar/Benefits.htm

Another forum link
http://probrewer.com/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-2911.html

Membership needed for more info here
http://www.asbcnet.org/journal/abstracts/b...ssues/40-40.htm

This backs up the malt theorey
http://www.regional.org.au/au/abts/2001/t4/robinson.htm

Howtobrew.com recons:
http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter11-8.html

Copper/metals + hot side aeration...
http://www.pqcorp.com/marketsserved/Brewing.asp

 

[Darren]

Hi Ross,
I have had chill haze problems using all types of malt (Wey pils, Bairds and TF MO and also aussie ale and lager malts). I have also had no chill haze problems using the same malts in different batches.
I suspect that too hot sparge/over-sparging (leaching excess tannins) is the culprit.
To echo others voices, chill haze in a pils malt would be a problem, but in an English ale malt, cool conditioning (which should drop most of the haze) followed by serving at ale temps is all the malt was designed to do.
cheers
Darren

 

[Ross]

Hi Ross,
I have had chill haze problems using all types of malt (Wey pils, Bairds and TF MO and also aussie ale and lager malts). I have also had no chill haze problems using the same malts in different batches.
I suspect that too hot sparge/over-sparging (leaching excess tannins) is the culprit.
To echo others voices, chill haze in a pils malt would be a problem, but in an English ale malt, cool conditioning (which should drop most of the haze) followed by serving at ale temps is all the malt was designed to do.
cheers
Darren

[post="80600"][/post]​

Well being a big fan of Fawcetts MO & never having had the problem before, it's a bit annoying to have 3 beers (all ones I've brewed before as identically as I can), all made with Bairds, end up with this problem. I certainly wasn't aware that this is a common facet/(fault?) with British malts, but accept maybe it is & that I've been extremely lucky that my first 20+ AG's using MO have been crystal clear...
As a consequence I'll only use this malt if there's no other alternative & definately not in beer styles that need to be served cold - Will save a bit on the grain costs, so can't be all bad B) ...

 

[Darren]

Ross,
You could check the batch number of the malt (should be on the bag) and contact the supplier and raise your concerns. I would be interested in the batch number too and will follow it up as well. Maybe they will suggest a particular crush/mash regime/water composition to help with the haze. MO malts are QC certified so there shouldn't be a problem with them.
cheers
Darren

 

[Ross]

Ross,
You could check the batch number of the malt (should be on the bag) and contact the supplier and raise your concerns. I would be interested in the batch number too and will follow it up as well. Maybe they will suggest a particular crush/mash regime/water composition to help with the haze. MO malts are QC certified so there shouldn't be a problem with them.
cheers
Darren

[post="80642"][/post]​

Good idea Darren, assuming they consider it a fault - By Seans comments it would appear that it's perfectly acceptable withing the trade??
I'll get the details on Monday when I pick up my new grain...

Cheers...

 

[Ross]

Well for anyone interested,

The Polyclar followed by filtering, cleared the beer beautifully - Since Polyclar apparently also removes astringent off flavours & improves the shelf life of the beer, without any detrimental effects; I shall be using this on all my beers using Bairds MO, as a matter of course.

Also, an old but interesting article on removing haze here:

http://byo.com/feature/508.html

Cheers Ross

 

[colinw]

I wish we could still get Fawcett's base malts. I have had slight chill haze in all the beers I've made with Bairds Maris Otter, even those with a high adjunct level (flaked maize or invert syrup). I have taken to using Polyclar in beers brewed with MO, and with Joe White Traditional Ale Malt.

On the other hand, beers made with Fawcett's Halcyon malt have come out crystal clear. I have a pale ale made with Fawcett's Halcyon on tap now, and it is brilliantly clear without using any finings at all.

cheers,
Colin

 

[Ross]

I wish we could still get Fawcett's base malts. I have had slight chill haze in all the beers I've made with Bairds Maris Otter, even those with a high adjunct level (flaked maize or invert syrup). I have taken to using Polyclar in beers brewed with MO, and with Joe White Traditional Ale Malt.

On the other hand, beers made with Fawcett's Halcyon malt have come out crystal clear. I have a pale ale made with Fawcett's Halcyon on tap now, and it is brilliantly clear without using any finings at all.

cheers,
Colin

[post="90293"][/post]​

Colin,

What's the difference between Halcyon & MO? Is it worth the change?

cheers Ross

 

[colinw]

Halcyon is an English winter barley strain which is a cross between Maris Otter and a strain called Sargent. It has quite a different flavour to Maris Otter - less caramelly, and more crisp & grainy in character. My most recent batch of pale ale using it has a subtle peat like character which is quite delicious.

I think it would be a fine base malt for a Scottish ale, and have just purchased a pack of Wyeast Edinburgh in order to make such a beast.

cheers,
Colin

 

[MHB]

I have had good results with PVPP.
As it is totally insoluble, and as it acts by binding the polyphenols it is removing one of the two big contributors to chill haze, and there are no problems getting rid of it once it has done its job.

I had a run of Lager brews that were throwing the most amazing amount of haze, took up doing a forcing test on a sample, if it showed too much haze, just add a heaped teaspoon of PVPP to the rack. (According to Kunze- 50g/HL is the upper limit under the Reinheitsgebot)

Found it helped a lot

It is reasonably available, they use it to prevent pinking in wine making, your LHB should be able to get some for you if they ask one of their suppliers of wine making equipment.

Good Brewing
MHB

 

[Ross]

I have had good results with PVPP.
As it is totally insoluble, and as it acts by binding the polyphenols it is removing one of the two big contributors to chill haze, and there are no problems getting rid of it once it has done its job.

I had a run of Lager brews that were throwing the most amazing amount of haze, took up doing a forcing test on a sample, if it showed too much haze, just add a heaped teaspoon of PVPP to the rack. (According to Kunze- 50g/HL is the upper limit under the Reinheitsgebot)

Found it helped a lot

It is reasonably available, they use it to prevent pinking in wine making, your LHB should be able to get some for you if they ask one of their suppliers of wine making equipment.

Good Brewing
MHB

[post="93611"][/post]​

It is great stuff - totally removed the haze from the MO brews I've done. Would still rather use a malt that doesn't need it though ...