Chill Haze

Australia & New Zealand Homebrewing Forum

Help Support Australia & New Zealand Homebrewing Forum:

Ross

CraftBrewer
Joined
14/1/05
Messages
9,262
Reaction score
370
Just done 3 brews & got chill haze in all of them. The only difference to previous brews is that the latest grain from my hbs is Bairds MO rather than Fawcetts.
I seem to remember a while back that guys were complaining about this with Bairds??

Is there any way of stopping this happening - I boil hard for 90 mins & chill quickly - never suffered this before...

This brew in CC was done with Wyeast ESB 1968. Pic taken at 2c & after warming in microwave...

Chill_haze_001.jpg Chill_haze_002.jpg


Not happy - just done my xmas case Oktoberfest using same grain & 2 other brews... :angry:

P.S. & before someone says - no filtering is not going to help :p ...
 

AndrewQLD

RED ON WHITE IPA
Joined
12/3/04
Messages
4,149
Reaction score
306
Hi Ross,
Some info:
http://www.gracedavison.com/products/fcph/...ar/chillhaz.htm
Taken from above link
More about Chill-Haze & Chill-Proofing

The clarity of beer is an important factor influencing consumer acceptance. The presence of haze in beer is usually associated with inferior quality. Haze in beer is, however, a natural phenomenon and proper treatment is required to prevent or delay its formation.
Upon storage for one to three weeks, beer develops a cloudiness, which is only observable at about 0o and which completely re-dissolves if the temperature of the beer rises. This type of haze is called "chill-haze" and measures taken for its prevention are referred to as "chill-proofing".
The two most important classes of compounds involved in chill-haze formation are proteins and polyphenols. The molecular weights (MW) of the proteins cover a wide range of about 1,000 to 1,000,000. They contribute to the mouthfeel and foam retention characteristics of the beer. The molecular weights of polyphenols range from 100 to several thousands with a very wide range of molecular structures. Polyphenols impart certain flavour characteristics and act as natural antioxidants preserving the original taste of beer.
Chill-haze is formed by the combination of "haze-sensitive" proteins with "haze-sensitive" polyphenols, mainly via hydrogen bonding. Haze-sensitive means that certain proteins have a higher tendency to form complexes with polyphenols and vice versa.
Chill-proofing can be achieved by selective removal of "haze-sensitive" proteins. DARACLAR beer stabilizing agents are synthetic silica gels of high purity and consistent quality, which selectively remove proteins that participate in chill-haze and not those responsible for beer foam or mouthfeel.


And an interesting discussion here http://probrewer.com/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-2911.html
Probably not much help but it's all the info I have.

Cheers
Andrew
Edited to add link
 

Gough

Maintain the Rage!
Joined
12/5/03
Messages
1,370
Reaction score
2
That's really interesting Ross. I was one of those complaining of haze probs in most of my Baird's MO based beers from my previous bag of this malt. My most recent bag has had less clarity issues. I know Warren from Melbourne has experienced the same thing. Maybe Baird's have some quality control issues given this significant variation beetween bags??

Shawn.
 

Ross

CraftBrewer
Joined
14/1/05
Messages
9,262
Reaction score
370
Well I reckon It'll be one of the last times I use it - The hbs had asked for fawcetts as well, as I had warned them about the clarity issues raised on this forum - Unfortunately they still got Baird's delivered by the distributor :angry:

I'll try Polyclar & then filter, to see if this helps...
 

Batz

Batz Brewery...Hand crafted beers from the 'Batcav
Joined
8/8/03
Messages
12,731
Reaction score
1,417
I had the same problem with "Kirin" malt , you need to do a stepped mash to fix this

Batz
 

Ross

CraftBrewer
Joined
14/1/05
Messages
9,262
Reaction score
370
Batz said:
I had the same problem with "Kirin" malt , you need to do a stepped mash to fix this

Batz
[post="80441"][/post]​
What temp & for how long?
 

MAH

Well-Known Member
Joined
17/3/04
Messages
900
Reaction score
2
Hi Ross

I've only ever used one bag of the Bairds MO. I can't remember any chill haze problems, but I still didn't like the malt. It just seemed a little bland and flat compared to the Fawcetts. My beers didn't have the same nicely rounded maltiness.

When I used it I mashed at 66C for 90mins at 3ltr per kilo and batch sparged.

Just not a malt I would use again.

Cheers
MAH
 

Sean

Well-Known Member
Joined
8/10/04
Messages
441
Reaction score
2
Since the main complaint here seems to be against an English maltster, it might be worth noting that authentic English real ales DO chill-haze pretty regularly if subjected to temperatures below about 8 C. This isn't a problem because they aren't meant to be served that cold anyway.
 

Gough

Maintain the Rage!
Joined
12/5/03
Messages
1,370
Reaction score
2
Sean said:
Since the main complaint here seems to be against an English maltster, it might be worth noting that authentic English real ales DO chill-haze pretty regularly if subjected to temperatures below about 8 C. This isn't a problem because they aren't meant to be served that cold anyway.
[post="80452"][/post]​
You may be right - I don't have enough experience of a wide variety of English Ales to argue. But it still seems confusing to me that with my current bag of Baird's MO I have no chill haze probs, and yet I did with my last one. FWIW I don't have chill haze probs with JW Pils and Ale malts, Weyermann Pils or Weyermann Munich Type I which are the other base malts I use. I have only had probs with a particular bag of MO and the new Bohemian Pilsner malt, which I'm putting down to the lack of a protein rest on my (stupid!) behalf... MO malt is supposed to be 'well modified'. I would stand by my observation, and that of other brewers I've spoken to about it that there seems to be inconsistencies in Baird's MO which is a shame given I really like the flavour :)

As a side question, why is it that we can't get TF Maris Otter anymore?

Shawn.
 

Sean

Well-Known Member
Joined
8/10/04
Messages
441
Reaction score
2
Gough said:
Sean said:
Since the main complaint here seems to be against an English maltster, it might be worth noting that authentic English real ales DO chill-haze pretty regularly if subjected to temperatures below about 8 C. This isn't a problem because they aren't meant to be served that cold anyway.
[post="80452"][/post]​
You may be right - I don't have enough experience of a wide variety of English Ales to argue. But it still seems confusing to me that with my current bag of Baird's MO I have no chill haze probs, and yet I did with my last one. FWIW I don't have chill haze probs with JW Pils and Ale malts, Weyermann Pils or Weyermann Munich Type I which are the other base malts I use. I have only had probs with a particular bag of MO and the new Bohemian Pilsner malt, which I'm putting down to the lack of a protein rest on my (stupid!) behalf... MO malt is supposed to be 'well modified'. I would stand by my observation, and that of other brewers I've spoken to about it that there seems to be inconsistencies in Baird's MO which is a shame given I really like the flavour :)

As a side question, why is it that we can't get TF Maris Otter anymore?

Shawn.
[post="80455"][/post]​
I'm not disputing that there is an inconsistency - I've never used Baird's malts - I'm suggesting that avoiding chill-haze problems is not a priority for English maltsters as it's not a property that their main customers are concerned about. It possibly is an issue for J Whites and Weyermann (and Powells) because they have a different customer base - one that may expect to be able to chill beers without additional processing.
 

Tony

Quality over Quantity
Joined
26/4/04
Messages
7,168
Reaction score
276
I think Sean just hit the nail on the head.........

Drink your beer warmer :)

Most of my ales get a bit of haze in them at 2 to 4 deg. but i like them at 8 deg and the haze has gone.

I have used All the JW malts, IMC munich, and the bairds MO and have a bit of haze in all of them

After they have matured a bit in the bottle the haze goes away and they are really bright clear.

Funny thing.......... the 2 clearest beers i have ever made were 70% wheat malt beers. A hefeweizen and a dunkelweizen brewed with WLP300.

as clear as comercial beer........... no shit.

cheers
 

Sean

Well-Known Member
Joined
8/10/04
Messages
441
Reaction score
2
Tony said:
I think Sean just hit the nail on the head.........

Drink your beer warmer :)

Most of my ales get a bit of haze in them at 2 to 4 deg. but i like them at 8 deg and the haze has gone.

I have used All the JW malts, IMC munich, and the bairds MO and have a bit of haze in all of them

After they have matured a bit in the bottle the haze goes away and they are really bright clear.

Funny thing.......... the 2 clearest beers i have ever made were 70% wheat malt beers. A hefeweizen and a dunkelweizen brewed with WLP300.

as clear as comercial beer........... no shit.

cheers
[post="80488"][/post]​
Why anyone would want to chill any ale (Duvel and wheat beers excepted) below 11C baffles me anyway.
 

PostModern

Iron Wolf Brewery
Joined
9/12/02
Messages
5,293
Reaction score
16
Sean said:
Why anyone would want to chill any ale (Duvel and wheat beers excepted) below 11C baffles me anyway.
[post="80490"][/post]​
Because here in Australia (big island, Southern Hemisphere), where the ambient temp is usually above 11C, by the time you've got to the bottom of a pint glass, the beer will have warmed by more than a few degrees. Now you may enjoy your Australian Pale Ales at 16C, but to me, that's a fermenting temperature, not a drinking temperature.
 

Sean

Well-Known Member
Joined
8/10/04
Messages
441
Reaction score
2
PostModern said:
Sean said:
Why anyone would want to chill any ale (Duvel and wheat beers excepted) below 11C baffles me anyway.
[post="80490"][/post]​
Because here in Australia (big island, Southern Hemisphere), where the ambient temp is usually above 11C, by the time you've got to the bottom of a pint glass, the beer will have warmed by more than a few degrees. Now you may enjoy your Australian Pale Ales at 16C, but to me, that's a fermenting temperature, not a drinking temperature.
[post="80492"][/post]​
Seemed like a good argument till I moved to Mildura, and still run my keg fridge at 11 C. I'll compromise to the climate by pouring halves, not pints, but an ale at less than 10 C looses to much flavour - might as well switch to lager.
 

PostModern

Iron Wolf Brewery
Joined
9/12/02
Messages
5,293
Reaction score
16
There you go, Ross. A solution. Move to Victoria where the climate is like England so you can serve your beers warmer. I believe that 2C is a touch cold for any beer (at that temp your tastebuds are pretty much inactive), but it seems insane to me to keep a keg fridge at 11. Sorry Sean, it's just not Australian.
 

ozbrewer

im ozzing flab
Joined
11/4/05
Messages
624
Reaction score
0
i have to serve my beer at 2 deg c so they taste good




what does this mean
 

Hopsta

Well-Known Member
Joined
29/3/05
Messages
435
Reaction score
20
I've got an ESB on tap now that ive only just force carbonated its got 1kg of bairds MO, 1.7kg DME, 340gm torrified wheat in it and is pretty hazy, i tried putting a sample in the microwave for 30secs and it was still hazy, i used finnings in it aswell they usually come out pretty clear, dunno what the prob is, maybe its got something to do with me shaking the hell outa the keg to carbonate it.... oh well i'll check it again in the morning and see......
 

jayse

Black Label Society
Joined
25/7/03
Messages
3,402
Reaction score
12
Iam another who's beer is kept around 8-12c in the cool space.
Just add i have used bairds with no dramas at all, but at 12c chill haze isn't even something i ever think about. Coldest my beer would ever be served would be about 8c and that is very rarely.
I know this is no help to the chill haze problem this thread is about.
Only sudgestion i have is cool it right down untill the haze forms then add your finnings.

the moral of the story is what not to do if a bird shits on you
Jayse
 

barfridge

Small fridge, powerful thirst
Joined
14/5/04
Messages
1,043
Reaction score
1
My oktoberfest has shocking chill haze, and it was a double decoction. So somehow I don't think a step mash will help.
 

Ross

CraftBrewer
Joined
14/1/05
Messages
9,262
Reaction score
370
I don't keep my beer at 2c, if you read my post, it's CCing at 2c - My comment was that this malt is causing haze & I was very upset as I've done an Oktoberfest with it for the xmas case - not happy giving everyone a hazy beer, as this should be served chilled...

This article states that chill haze is a temporary precursor to permanent haze:

http://oz.craftbrewer.org/Library/Methods/...r/HSAmash.shtml


I will do a test, to see at what temp the haze disappears, but regardless, I prefer to make beers without this problem...
 

Latest posts

Top