Cask Vs Bottle Conditioning

[neonmeate]

i am tempted by doc's beer engine heist but i just wonder if it's necessary.

is there really any significant difference (apart from buying into CAMRA propaganda) in bottle conditioning ales at low CO2 levels, and serving it on cask? i've thought through it and can't see any reason why beer engines and shit are necessary. i certainly love the taste of beer on cask but i wonder if this is just because of the freshness of the beer - it's always being tapped at the right moment where hop and yeast flavours are balanced. so is it just a case of drinking your bottles at the right time? or is there something unique about cask beer that i'm missing?

curious

 

[Guest Lurker]

I'll tell you after I set the system up and do a comparison. Matilda Bay sell their Stcklers bitter both on tap and through a hand pump, and to me the hand pump is a much better beer, but that is mostly because it is warmer and flatter. There is a site somewhere from a US guy who has an engine, a big enthusiast. His claim is that to replicate cask beer flavour, not only do you need the aspirator set up, but for the first few pints you have to let a small amount of air into the headspace then switch back to CO2 to replicate an English pub bitter flavour.

 

[AndrewQLD]

Here's an interesting link on cask conditioning and general cask ale production cask ales

Cheers
Andrew

 

[neonmeate]

that's interesting about the O2. i guess you never get cask beer without some O2 mixed in. so a little bit of oxidation helps the flavour?
this is probably one of those questions that can't be answered except by taste.

 

[Ross]

I've never tasted a bottled ale that's matched it's kegged equivalent if served correctly. The bottled versions have always been far gassier & lacking the "freshness" of the cask product. I guess the commercial bottled product is aimed a bit more at the mainstream market & they can't afford to pour flat beer.
But even bottling with low carbonation on the home front, I've not been able to match my kegs taste - I guess there's a scientific reason??

++++

I've always been led to believe a little bit of O2 is required. Hence I leave some O2 in my keg head space for these ales when I force carbonate using the old shake & roll method.
Never had one turn bad on me yet........touch wood.


cheers Ross

 

[AndrewQLD]

Ross,
Do you use a lower Co2 volumes when trying to emulate a cask ale, I see that cask ales should have 1-2 Co2 vol, and lagers and such have 2-3 Co2 vol. Those are rough figures. Do you keg them at lower pressure?

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Ross]

Ross,
Do you use a lower Co2 volumes when trying to emulate a cask ale, I see that cask ales should have 1-2 Co2 vol, and lagers and such have 2-3 Co2 vol. Those are rough figures. Do you keg them at lower pressure?

Cheers
Andrew

[post="113318"][/post]​

Andrew,

I carbonate on the low side in the first place & then dispence at 50kpa @6c - Beer is still more carbonated/cooler than the UK equivalent but it's not a bad compromise. The aspirator (Doc's bulk buy) hopefully will allow me to set up a naturally conditioned keg on direct gravity feed (better than handpump IMO)...

cheers Ross

 

[Malnourished]

Definitely agree on the 02 thing.

Another thing that hasn't been mentioned is that the carbonation is "vented" before serving, which presumably releases the more volatile aromas before serving. This doesn't happen with bottle conditioning, and I think it's important; there's something about British yeasts that makes them react badly to bottle-conditioning. The yeast seems to give it a, well, yeasty flavour, whereas the aroma of cask ale is more subtle and round. Belgian yeasts on the other hand, seem to need bottle-conditioning to impart their yeasty character.

This article (http://www.ratebeer.com/Beer-News/Article-352.htm) contains the following quote:

The flavour profile of a cask ale is much more noticeable than a keg or bottled beer. Bottle conditioned beers will also have this noticeable flavour profile, but they need to be prepared and conditioned in advance - that is the bottle needs to be opened and allowed to settle for a few hours.

So perhaps if you just sit bottles (with minimal carbonation) for a couple of hours first you'll have more-or-less the same effect?

 

[neonmeate]

now we're onto something... that's interesting that british yeasts produce stuff that needs venting. i always wondered why most english bottleconditioned beers suck.
i'll do some experiments with "breathing" the golden ale i got in the bottle now...

 

[Malnourished]

that's interesting that british yeasts produce stuff that needs venting.

Well I should point out that it's purely my own hypothesis, but I think it's a good one. If there's a scientific basis for it, I'm not aware of it.

It just seems like a logical argument to me. British yeasts will have evolved to suit cask-conditioning. Belgian yeasts for bottle-conditioning. Swap the yeast and the serving method and you generally have an inferior product.

I've never had particularly satisfactory results bottle-conditioning with British yeasts (the Irish strain is another story though.) But regular, non-real ale, kegging generally works quite well, though obviously the mouthfeel isn't quite the same.

 

[warrenlw63]

i always wondered why most english bottleconditioned beers suck.
i'll do some experiments with "breathing" the golden ale i got in the bottle now...

[post="113523"][/post]​

NM.

They could also suck because they sit on a bottlo's shelf for any given period of time.

Warren -

 

[Sean]

Definitely agree on the 02 thing.

Another thing that hasn't been mentioned is that the carbonation is "vented" before serving, which presumably releases the more volatile aromas before serving. This doesn't happen with bottle conditioning, and I think it's important;

Damn right it's important. Even the exact venting process you use should vary from beer to beer to get the best from it. Beers from Marstons, Adnams, Timothy Taylor, Branscombe and Exe Valley (for instance) each need quite different venting regimes to perfect the beer.

 

[Malnourished]

Beers from Marstons, Adnams, Timothy Taylor, Branscombe and Exe Valley (for instance) each need quite different venting regimes to perfect the beer.

I was hoping you'd chime in here.
Do you know why this is the case? Is it the different strains of yeast? Different fermentation practices by the breweries?