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Stuwort

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G'day all. I have put together a K&B blonde and am just wondering if any one has had any success with Cascade and am I going the right way about using Cascade? Here is my recipe:

1 x Coopers Lager
500g Honey (Wescobee red check)
500g LDME
30g Cascade pellets

I have put 300g of LDME in 3L of water, brought to the boil and added 30g of Cascade for 7 min and then turned off, added the honey, stirred and let sit for 5 min. This was starined before being put in the fermenter and I added 5g of the strained cascade to the fermenter as an experiment.

Cheers

Stu
 

slash22000

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You can never really go wrong with Cascade when it comes to an hoppy American style beer. It's one of the staples of the industry.

All told, you're not going to get a lot of hop flavour/aroma from a 3L boil. Your method is correct but the volumes are what is going to decrease the effectiveness. Out of curiosity, why 7 minutes? That's an oddly specific time.

If you can get your hands on some more Cascade, 20 - 40 grams thrown into the fermentor after active fermentation and left idle for ~1 week will give you a nice Cascade aroma. Sounds like a tasty brew regardless!
 

Amber Fluid

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slash22000 said:
All told, you're not going to get a lot of hop flavour/aroma from a 3L boil.
Although for other reasons it is better to do 6-10L boil, I understand, but why won't you get a lot of flavour/aroma from 3L boil?...
 

Stuwort

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slash22000 said:
You can never really go wrong with Cascade when it comes to an hoppy American style beer. It's one of the staples of the industry.

All told, you're not going to get a lot of hop flavour/aroma from a 3L boil. Your method is correct but the volumes are what is going to decrease the effectiveness. Out of curiosity, why 7 minutes? That's an oddly specific time.

If you can get your hands on some more Cascade, 20 - 40 grams thrown into the fermentor after active fermentation and left idle for ~1 week will give you a nice Cascade aroma. Sounds like a tasty brew regardless!
The boil was planned as a ten minute boil, but my young bloke started to howl in is cot, so I went with his call.
 

Batz

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I think it great you had a go at this, and with Cascade, as said above you can't go wrong. My guess is your going to love this, and all grain is not that fair off is it?


Batz
 

Blitzer

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Amber Fluid said:
Although for other reasons it is better to do 6-10L boil, I understand, but why won't you get a lot of flavour/aroma from 3L boil?...
yes, what's the issue with flavour/aroma from a 3litre boil?
 

Stuwort

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Batz said:
I think it great you had a go at this, and with Cascade, as said above you can't go wrong. My guess is your going to love this, and all grain is not that fair off is it?


Batz
Already pricing up urns.
 

slash22000

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Isn't that half the reason to do a full volume boil? Hop utilisation? That's what I'd always heard. Why bother doing a full boil if it'll have the same result as a partial boil?
 

NewtownClown

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Hop utilisation refers to the isomerisation of the Alpha Acids for bittering. A small boil is fine for extracting aroma...

7 minutes is ideal for Aroma as per the oft posted chart below

 

carniebrew

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If anything you're going to get more aroma/flavour from only a short boil....longer boil will boil off the flavours/aromas and impart bitterness. Cascade is brilliant as a flavour/aroma hop in my opinion...I can't get enough of the stuff. Bought some from Dave @ Greensborough last week and spent half the drive home just smelling them through the bag.

A buddy of mine put down a Pale Ale kit brew a couple of weeks ago using Cascade in a tea bag type of arrangement from his local HBS. The instructions told him to do a short boil with them (around 10 mins I think), then put the boil and the tea bag into the FV. Sounds exactly like what you've done Stuwort so yep, you're doing it the right way.
 

slash22000

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Ah. Right. That's my mistake. So a full volume boil makes no difference at all when it comes to hop flavour/aroma, only bitterness levels?
 

Blitzer

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So based on the below chart I should throw as much hops as possible in @ 20 minutes for Flavour?

It's showing only a 20% extraction of Flavour @ 10 minutes... Seems contrary to what people have been saying.

NewtownClown said:
Hop utilisation refers to the isomerisation of the Alpha Acids for bittering. A small boil is fine for extracting aroma...

7 minutes is ideal for Aroma as per the oft posted chart below

 

Amber Fluid

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slash22000 said:
Ah. Right. That's my mistake. So a full volume boil makes no difference at all when it comes to hop flavour/aroma, only bitterness levels?
I guess you could say that. However, it has more to do with utilisation of the hops. I guess the more hop isomerisation of the alpha acids will impact a bit on the level of bitterness. However, boiling in 3L of water/wort wont impact on the flavour/aroma. Well, not that I know of anyway. Therefore, the medium volume is irrelevant in this case.


and now to throw a spanner in the works.... you will get even more hop utilisation by boiling in water than you will in wort. :)
 

felten

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That chart is about as accurate as using an airlock for measuring your gravity.

It's a very broad and generalised take on how to time your hop additions, I wouldn't read it as gospel.
 

bum

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Amber Fluid said:
you will get even more hop utilisation by boiling in water than you will in wort
It is worth remembering that this is correct for bitterness only. Everything else goes up the shit.
 

NewtownClown

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I should have also said this , like all methods of calculating utlilisation (Rager, Tinseth) are approximates. As close as current research can give us...

Also, different beers and different size boils give slightly different results. too.

Going by that chart, 10 mins gives off a trade off of less aroma for a little flavour. Most 10 min additions have also have later earlier additions, too. So a 30 min add. will also add to the flavour as well as assisting in adding to the bittering.
Brewers use the calculations and charts such as the simplified one I posted to determine to how to get the best value out of their hops....

I also add at 10 mins for flavour because I know that it takes at least another 10 mins for the wort to get below 80C whilst the convection currents cease, whirlpool and chill. In effect - the hops have been in for 20 mins...
 

Amber Fluid

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Blitzer said:
So based on the below chart I should throw as much hops as possible in @ 20 minutes for Flavour?

It's showing only a 20% extraction of Flavour @ 10 minutes... Seems contrary to what people have been saying.
I don't think it is contrary to what people have been saying.... I have noticed that usually people's recipes say when they had their addition and not that it is the optimal time to use them but it is the time that works to produce the recipe they want. I don't really see anywhere someone says it HAS to be at 10 minutes to achieve optimal flavouring.
 

Blitzer

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Okay, just want to clarify. Nowhere have I read someone say 10 minutes is the time to add for flavouring.
Just heard people say "later additions for aroma/flavour are better".. The chart shows 20 minutes which is almost mid-boil.

Though I think the questions was hit on the head when someone said even if added @ 10 minutes it will still be going for 20 minutes unless you cool automatically after boil is finished.
 

slash22000

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Do people not normally brew with a hop bag that could be removed? Why do hops have to "stay" in the boil?

My understanding of how brewing works has been turned on its head by this thread. :p Partial boils are just as good as full boils, hops "stay" in the boil for longer than you're boiling ...
 

carniebrew

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I don't, I add my hops directly into the boil, then strain them out (mostly) as I pour into the fermenter.
 

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