Can you underpitch when bottle carbing?

[mtb]

In my pursuit of the clearest & most homebrew-gasm inducing Vienna Lager possible, I've taken to planning a long cold crash after an initial cold crash & transfer to secondary FV, and then fining with gelatin with another cold crash for a couple of weeks. My hope is to fine the bejesus out of the beer before bottling so the flocculated yeast is reduced to an absolute minimum. I want to achieve this mainly because I want to know if I can - not for any particular technical reason - although I believe yeast alters flavour so the less I have in my lager the better, as far as I'm concerned.

The question that came to mind is; is it possible to "underpitch" yeast when bottle carbing? Is it possible to remove so much suspended yeast that the amount remaining in the bottle is stressed due to the workload (much like an underpitch in primary fermentation) and thus getting myself some unwanted side effects? Or is this a RDWHAHB situation. Looking for the collective thoughts please.

 

[peteru]

My guess is that you will be fine. Give it enough time and be aware of the temperature you store your bottles at.

I've had some heavy duty barley wine that was very clear and high alcohol content too. It took something like 3-4 months to carb properly, but when it got there it was amazing. I wish I brewed more than 12L of it. Still enough sediment in the bottle to require careful handling - it's just unavoidable, you require certain mass of yeast to metabolise the sugar and generate the right amount of CO2. If you want it clear, you'll have bottle it carbonated.

 

[Matplat]

The other way to go is to bottle as normal, let them carb, then cold condition for a few weeks in the bottle. Everything will drop out and compact leaving nice clear beer

 

[yoboseyo]

I'm guessing just due to the increase in alcohol that bottle conditioning adds (which is negligible) that very little yeast is required to perform carbonation, so there's probably more than enough still in suspension

 

[Danscraftbeer]

The other way to go is to bottle as normal, let them carb, then cold condition for a few weeks in the bottle. Everything will drop out and compact leaving nice clear beer

This my thought too. Considering your going to get sediment in the bottle either way. Its basically the same result with less fussing.
Add the finings to the primary and bottle. Or add finings when racked to secondary but I rather no secondary.

 

[mtb]

Good advice. Thanks guys

 

[TheWiggman]

I'll be 'that bloke' and throw a spanner into this argument. I agree with your logic about low yeast count in the bottle can lead to stressed yeast and off flavours. With ales, I haven't had too many issues. With lagers I've never nailed a bottled brew, to the extent now that I only keg my lagers. If bottling lagers I would add fresh lager yeast and bulk prime, and then store between 12-18°C until carbed, then lager at lower temps or as desired.
As for your comment about yeast altering flavour - I disagree. The yeast will contribute to flavour via fermentation but the presence of it at the bottom of the bottle (autolysis and the like excluded) won't contribute to flavour if you don't tip it into the glass.

 

[Black n Tan]

I agree with a long cold crash prior to bottling to reduce yeast and haze complexes in the bottle. I have found a vast difference in favour between a kegged lager and a bottle conditioned lager from the same batch: the legged version tasted brighter and there was a yeasty flavour to the bottle conditioned version. Even after an extended cold crash there will likely be plenty of yeast to carbonate. I don't think the yeast will become stressed by the addition of a small amount of sugar for carbonation. So if you can't force carbonate and bottle from the keg, then I think your approach of reducing yeast and haze complexes prior to bottling is sound.

 

[manticle]

The only times I have ever worried about reseeding bottles is in beers that have aged a year or more before packaging.

If you're trying to drop particulate matter out of solution, it is preferable to do in one vessel, then transfer and leave as much as possible behind. Why carry over trub into a vessel that gets agitated by necessity (taking from crate/basement/cellar/fridge, pouring into glass/mouth) when you can leave it behind?

 

[yankinoz]

I've been experimenting with adding corn sugar to lagers straight from primary but clear, bottling, allowing 2-3 days for yeast to multiply, lagering in the bottle for two months or more, and then raising the temperature to carbonate. Carbing from that point can take up to three weeks, but does happen.

But you're fining, so your clear is probably extra clear.

I've had some great zwickelbier lagers that were a little cloudy from yeast.

 

[MHB]

In my pursuit of the clearest & most homebrew-gasm inducing Vienna Lager possible, I've taken to planning a long cold crash after an initial cold crash & transfer to secondary FV, and then fining with gelatin with another cold crash for a couple of weeks. My hope is to fine the bejesus out of the beer before bottling so the flocculated yeast is reduced to an absolute minimum. I want to achieve this mainly because I want to know if I can - not for any particular technical reason - although I believe yeast alters flavour so the less I have in my lager the better, as far as I'm concerned.

The question that came to mind is; is it possible to "underpitch" yeast when bottle carbing? Is it possible to remove so much suspended yeast that the amount remaining in the bottle is stressed due to the workload (much like an underpitch in primary fermentation) and thus getting myself some unwanted side effects? Or is this a RDWHAHB situation. Looking for the collective thoughts please.

I think a bit of reading up on how to make Lager wouldn't go astray, New Lager Brewing by Greg Noonan would be a real asset.

The term "Crash Chilling" is one that can be misleading, to make really good Lager, you want to reduce the temperature slowly so the yeast doesn't just stop. Yeast will clean up a lot of metabolic products as it slows down from fermenting temperatures. In no small part this is responsible for the clean "elegance" of well made Lager.
The long cold storage time is called Lagering, during this time (among other processes) haze particles form and fall to the bottom. The old term for this was "Chill Proofing" if you rack the beer after its clear and let it warm back up it will be a lot more stable and less prone to forming chill haze.
There is little point to adding Gelatine at this point in the process, haze particles aren't attracted to gelatine (they are to Isinglass) and by the time all the haze has dropped out all (well nearly) of the yeast will have dropped out. Remember finings only speed up something that would happen naturally if given time.

I would rack, Chill, Lager, Rack add dry yeast and priming sugar, Bottle, allow to carbonate and store somewhere "COOL" not cold enough to form more haze nor warm enough to affect the beer flavour (12-16oC); or Cold and don't let it warm up before you drink it.
My first choice for a priming yeast would be Mauri 497 the cheapest one on the market, one of the least affected by heat and very low in flavour, I'm pretty sure that what is in the Morgan's 6g Lager yeast pack.
Mark

 

[mtb]

Sounds like, for a variety of reasons, it's easier & generally better to keg & carb my whole batch and bottle from the keg.. time to get me a counterpressure bottle filler! I warned SWMBO in advance