Can Anyone Pls Give Me Some Feedback On This Czech Pils Recipe?

[drtomc]

Decoctions for morning brewing.

Melanoidin for evening brewing.

Life is all about compromises.



T.

 

[BeerSwiller]

Not really suitable for a czech pils. Not very tasty.

Hmm, BB Malt no good?
This is basically the only malt that I use as I bought a heap in bulk? Didn't actually realise there was significant difference between base malts

Other than that I have some Marris Otter?
Otherwise I will need to order in some Wey Pils

 

[dent]

Hmm, BB Malt no good?
This is basically the only malt that I use as I bought a heap in bulk? Didn't actually realise there was significant difference between base malts

Other than that I have some Marris Otter?
Otherwise I will need to order in some Wey Pils

Yeah don't use the MO - I made a lager once with MO for some misbegotten reason, never again.

The BB Pale can make a good lager but you won't get the malt character than a Czech Pils needs to be true to the style.

 

[Nick JD]

Didn't actually realise there was significant difference between base malts

Just as there are different varieties of Hops, there are different varieties of barley - and the other factor (like grapes and hops) is that the country and even reigon grown in will affect the taste.

Here's a blurb.

It has been argued that Moravia's Hana barley is the parent of all present-day varieties. An aristocratic landowner in the region started to select seed from Hana and sell the barley on a wide scale for brewing and malting in the 1860s and 1870s. In the decades that followed, this led to the Continent's first attempts to develop varieties by cross-breeding. Hana barley is a parent of modern German lager varieties like Alexis. British farmers had selected seeds even earlier, but their classic varieties have also crossed bloodlines with Hana. So have Scandinavian varieties since the earliest time of breeding. In the United States, Coors started using seeds from Moravia to grow its own barley back in the 1930s and 1940s. Today, American micros, brewpubs and home-brewers are increasingly using Moravian malt, and the supplier St Patrick's of Texas, in Austin, has become something of a specialist in this field.

Thing is, the Boh Pils grain is closely related to the original strain. It tastes really quite different to BB's "Pale" - which to me is almost indistinguishable from BB's Ale malt except in colour, slightly.

If you want to make a Czech Pils, buy some Cz Saaz and Cz Puilsner Malt and do a decoction. You'll still make a great lager without the proper ingredients though.

 

[Nick JD]

It's not often i agree with Nick...

I disagree, Doc.

 

[Wolfy]

Hmm, BB Malt no good?
This is basically the only malt that I use as I bought a heap in bulk? Didn't actually realise there was significant difference between base malts

Other than that I have some Marris Otter?
Otherwise I will need to order in some Wey Pils

BB malt will be fine, it will just not be beer-****** authentic, I used Joe White Pils malt in my last BoPills, it's not the same, and it's not authentic, but it still tastes fine.
If you have BB, I'd use it, but in the future or if you wanted to go all out authentic, then a specialty (under modified) German Pils malt (like Weyermann's Floor Malted Bohemian spring barley) and decoction mash are really the way to go.

 

[Nick JD]

BB malt will be fine, it will just not be beer-****** authentic, I used Joe White Pils malt in my last BoPills, it's not the same, and it's not authentic, but it still tastes fine.
If you have BB, I'd use it, but in the future or if you wanted to go all out authentic, then a specialty (under modified) German Pils malt (like Weyermann's Floor Malted Bohemian spring barley) and decoction mash are really the way to go.

Is Boh Pils Malt grown in Czech Republic? Or is it just that the Hanka variety (Boh Pils) of Pils Malt is grown in Germany?

On the subject of ******-free brewing ... I recently did a Czech Pilsner with Amarillo. At first, it was WEIRD. By the end of the keg I was lovin' it. Might do a Citra Boh Pils next.

 

[DJR]

It's not often i agree with Nick but a decoction, to my taste, is the difference between a good bo pils and a great bo pils.

There are those who decry decoctions as pointless as malts are modified enough to not warrant them but the extra dimension you get to the malt flavour from a decoction means i wont brew a pilsner without one. :icon_drool2:

After boiling some porridge of Best Pils malt the other day when doing a Boh Pils, the exact flavour that PU has that nothing else really has was coming from the saucepan i was decocting in.

:icon_drool2:

In response to the OP - more saaz please. Get it to 35-40 IBU.

Last one here had 135g of Saaz in the batch with the double decoction - :beerbang:

 

[Rosscoe]

Is Boh Pils Malt grown in Czech Republic? Or is it just that the Hanka variety (Boh Pils) of Pils Malt is grown in Germany?

On the subject of ******-free brewing ... I recently did a Czech Pilsner with Amarillo. At first, it was WEIRD. By the end of the keg I was lovin' it. Might do a Citra Boh Pils next.

I've tried some late Amarillo in a Pils before (10-15gm @ 5 Min I think) bittered with Perle. Turned out quite tasty. A bit of experimentation never hurts. Turn your Beer Nazi mode off and go for it. I'm thinking Galaxy next time...

Cheers,
Rosscoe

 

[brendanos]

Bohemian "style" Pilsner malt is undermodified - ie germinated less during the malting process retaining more starch / protein / glucan. The decoction process was favoured traditionally as these malts were inherently undermodified due to poor malting and decocting helped break the gluten/protein/starch apart so it could be converted in the mash.

Only decoct if you are using undermodified malt otherwise you'll "overmodify" your mash resulting in a thin beer. Czech Pilseners need a bit of body and maltiness, so if you plan to do a single infusion at 65C a tiny amount of carapils or melanoidin might help.

Czech's use the spelling "Pilsener"
Germans are fond of "Pils" to distinguish themselves from the Czechs but also use "Pilsner" and "Pilsener" interchangeably.
Moral of the story you can call a German what you like but a Czech should always be "Pilsener"

 

[BeerSwiller]

Bohemian "style" Pilsner malt is undermodified - ie germinated less during the malting process retaining more starch / protein / glucan. The decoction process was favoured traditionally as these malts were inherently undermodified due to poor malting and decocting helped break the gluten/protein/starch apart so it could be converted in the mash.

Only decoct if you are using undermodified malt otherwise you'll "overmodify" your mash resulting in a thin beer. Czech Pilseners need a bit of body and maltiness, so if you plan to do a single infusion at 65C a tiny amount of carapils or melanoidin might help.

Czech's use the spelling "Pilsener"
Germans are fond of "Pils" to distinguish themselves from the Czechs but also use "Pilsner" and "Pilsener" interchangeably.
Moral of the story you can call a German what you like but a Czech should always be "Pilsener"

Thanks everyone for their help, lots of info there to try/absorb

I've adjusted the recipe and will probably try something like this.


BeerSmith 2 Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: 'SomeSortOf' Pilsener
Brewer: Justin
Asst Brewer:
Style: Bohemian Pilsner
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (30.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 28.00 l
Post Boil Volume: 25.48 l
Batch Size (fermenter): 23.00 l
Bottling Volume: 22.00 l
Estimated OG: 1.056 SG
Estimated Color: 8.8 EBC
Estimated IBU: 34.1 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 79.9 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
5.30 kg Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (3.9 EBC) Grain 1 96.4 %
14.00 g Southern Cross [13.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 3 19.0 IBUs
30.00 g Saaz [4.40 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 4 10.6 IBUs
1.0 pkg SafLager German Lager (DCL/Fermentis #S- Yeast 6 -
0.20 kg Melanoiden Malt (39.4 EBC) Grain 2 3.6 %
30.00 g Saaz [4.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 5 4.5 IBUs


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body, No Mash Out
Total Grain Weight: 5.50 kg
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash In Add 14.34 l of water at 71.9 C 65.6 C 75 min

 

[Nick JD]

Why not do a double decoction? It's piss easy!

I'd suggest this double decotion (leave the Melanoidin out).

Mash in at 53C, then take out some (see below) and brig it to the boil - resting it at 72C for ten minutes on the way up. Add the boil bit back to bring your mash up to 66C and you're there.

That "some" is easy to figure out.

how much to decoct = mash volume x (target temp - start temp) / 100 - start temp

Say you have 30L of mash:

30 x (66-53) / (100-53) = 8.3L needs to be boiled and added back to make the 53C protein rest ramp up to the 66C sugaz rest.

The second decoction follows the same principles as the first.

Easy once you've done it once!

 

[drsmurto]

Bohemian "style" Pilsner malt is undermodified - ie germinated less during the malting process retaining more starch / protein / glucan. The decoction process was favoured traditionally as these malts were inherently undermodified due to poor malting and decocting helped break the gluten/protein/starch apart so it could be converted in the mash.

Only decoct if you are using undermodified malt otherwise you'll "overmodify" your mash resulting in a thin beer. Czech Pilseners need a bit of body and maltiness, so if you plan to do a single infusion at 65C a tiny amount of carapils or melanoidin might help.

Czech's use the spelling "Pilsener"
Germans are fond of "Pils" to distinguish themselves from the Czechs but also use "Pilsner" and "Pilsener" interchangeably.
Moral of the story you can call a German what you like but a Czech should always be "Pilsener"

Any reference you can point me to that backs up this statement? Overmodify your mash? How would this occur?

Being a synthetic chemist I am a fan of chemical reactions that occur during a brewday, Maillard reactions being a personal favourite.

Decoctions are a standard here for 100% Wey Pils. The smells coming from the decoction pot are amazing and the colour change very obvious.

This is my last Bo Pils, made with 100% Wey Pils malt. I am pretty happy with the extra colour and love the extra flavours. Nothing thin about it. And for all those carapils addicts, check out the head on a carapils free beer B)

 

[Nick JD]

This is my last Bo Pils, made with 100% Wey Pils malt.

Why don't you use the Hanka grain, Doc?

 

[drsmurto]

Why don't you use the Hanka grain, Doc?

I brew so few pilsners that buying a specific malt for them doesn't make much sense given i buy grain by the bag.

I use Wey Pils malt in a range of other beers like the Alt i brewed yesterday.

One day i will try but given it has taken me 4 years to finally brew with Golden Promise (Landlord) it will probably be another 4 years before i use the Hanka grain! :lol:

 

[BeerSwiller]

Great looking beer Doc,

OK, So I'm going to grab a bag of Wey Pils as I have other beers to make with this grain, I use BM2 and using the Decoctions Double Mash profile it says to take 7.5lt mash and bring to the boil... my question is, does this mean 50% mash and 50% wort?

from what i read from other posts here, i need to boil the actual grain? correct?

thanks guys!

 

[drsmurto]

Great looking beer Doc,

OK, So I'm going to grab a bag of Wey Pils as I have other beers to make with this grain, I use BM2 and using the Decoctions Double Mash profile it says to take 7.5lt mash and bring to the boil... my question is, does this mean 50% mash and 50% wort?

from what i read from other posts here, i need to boil the actual grain? correct?

thanks guys!

A decoction is boiling grain, so more like 90+% grain.

The way i do it (and as usual there will be any number of alternatives) is to use a wire strainer to take the mash out of the tun and let the liquor drain back into the tun. Measure the grain out using my highly analytical methodology (99c 9L bucket) and then add that to a stockpot. I heat it till 65-70C and then put a lid on and let it sit for 15 mins. Bring to the boil and boil on low for 15 mins. You only need enough liquid to prevent it from sticking.

Add that back to the tun and stir. Leave however long you plan on leaving each step (i tend to go for 30-45 mins) before drawing the next decoction.

I saw it done by a decoction master (DrGonzo) before attempting to do it myself but like taking the plunge and doing your 1st AG, it sounds a lot more complicated than it really is. It does make a brewday significantly longer though.

 

[RdeVjun]

Great looking beer Doc,

OK, So I'm going to grab a bag of Wey Pils as I have other beers to make with this grain, I use BM2 and using the Decoctions Double Mash profile it says to take 7.5lt mash and bring to the boil... my question is, does this mean 50% mash and 50% wort?

from what i read from other posts here, i need to boil the actual grain? correct?

thanks guys!

Not so much 50/50 but just grab 7.5L of the mash and boil it, so some grain and some liquor, I'd recommend ensuring there's more grain in it than liquor (Edit: As per DrS, more like 90% grain, adjust liquor to prevent sticking). You can delve into thin and thick decoctions if you want, I happen to prefer thick, there's even a setting for that in some software, eg. StrangeBrew2.
Probably the best read on Decoction Mashing is Kai's, it is quite comprehensive, though a bit heavy if you're just beginning.
Decoction can be as simple though as what I did this morning, I took 4L of the then protein- resting mash (55C) and boiled it for 15 minutes* and added it back to the mash, when stirred in it was close to saccharification rest temp of 66C so, seeing as I had a bit of space left in the tun (19L), I added a small amount of boiling water and it was spot on. As far as results go, I'm sold. :icon_drool2:
* Always continually stir your decoction, no matter what anyone says. It will burn the moment you turn your back on it, sure as eggs. Ain't that right argon?!

 

[Nick JD]

Another thing to add - the length of "porridge" boil you do dictates the colour/flavour. As does the consistency.

The good Doctor might be able to answer this one, but I've found that the flavour can be significantly altered without altering the colour much at all (long, quite dilute boil). Probably has something to do with the products of maillard reactions not being the same as those of caramelisation, or somefink.

The thicker it is, the quicker it'll darken.

Once it's boiling, turn the heat right down - you only need to retain the boil - and don't want to lose too much liquid if you plan to darken it up with a long boil.

 

[Steve@PMF82]

This thread has been really good, great info from nick, the Dr and Rdevjun, it has inspired me to try a decoction ! wont be for some time as i am going away, UK - (Belgium for 4 days) :icon_drool2: :icon_drool2:

I especially like the easy math that will allow me to work out myself how much to decoct to raise to desired temps.

cheers guys