Can a sanitizer go off?

[trustyrusty]

Hi I put a brew down last night, and there seems little yeast action and opened the lid to check... there are some bubbles on top but I noticed a waft of a smell that reminded me of the last one I threw out because I thought the yeast was suspect, I am now thinking the sanitizer might be off ? I am worried about this one now. I use a starsan like one that mix. I did a mix not long ago but can they loose effect. In any case I did clean very well because I want to make sure there were no issues.

This brew is standard coopers kit with BE2, kit yeast. Amber Ale. I did not want any chance of infection from other yeast or hops... I have chucked the last 2 away. One was my fault, other I think was yeast but my stock is now low....

Thanks

 

[Leyther]

They say with starsan that its good to use unless its cloudy, I reuse mine until it goes cloudy, I find if its in a sealed container (or a 4L keg in my case) it seems to stay clear, I left some in a 5L jug that was open to the air and it went cloudy fairly quickly.

Describe the smell, that might help with suggestions.

 

[manticle]

Unmixed or mixed? Mixed can eventually become ineffective, depending on various factors. Unmixed? Generally not in a long, long time if at all.

Infections can have a number of sources and once you get one, it can be hard to get rid of.
Are you using the same plastic equipment as last time?

With starsan, cloudiness is an inaccurate visual indicator. It's the airlock of starsan. pH is what matters.

 

[trustyrusty]

Hi Thanks, it is a starsan like product - same thing mix proportions etc - anyhow such a hard smell to describe - dull unsweet caramel with hint fermenting apple - I think but you know it is not a pleasant smell. The vesel is cold, less than ambient temp - think the yeast is dead. There is something happening - this is the 40th brew, and last 2 not good....First time this has happened. Using stainless FV, same plastic spoon...Always washed, sanitized. I always run water through tap in case old wort in there.. Any ideas?

 

[manticle]

Run more than water through if you can.
Hot sodium percarbonate or hot sodium metasilicate.
Get a new spoon and give that stainless a really good clean. Don't use chlorine or steel wool.

Check brewing area for rising damp or mould.
Clean and sanitise fridge.

 

[trustyrusty]

Thanks can mold effect the brew even if air locked?

I probably need to clean everything down, something is happening...

I was wondering if the sanitizer was maybe a touch too weak, maybe I used 2.5 ml instead of 3.5 ml.... would that make a big difference?

Is sodium percarbonate your standard vanish washing powder? I think is the same ingredients?

 

[manticle]

Sanitiser needs to be correct proportion as recommended.

Mould can ingress - it's not totally sealed/airtight in there.

Some washing powder like napisan contains a portion of SP as the main active ingredient. If this is unscented, you can use it but rinse well, then sanitise. The SP breaks down into hydrogen peroxide and eats organic matter.

You can also buy pure stuff, cheaply in bulk or dearly in small quantities - coopers 'sanitiser' or oxyper at hb shops. Don't replace your sanitiser with oxyper - use it to clean only, then rinse, then sanitise.

 

[clickeral]

I personally would just let it Ferment out and then see what it tastes like at the end if drinkable keep it if not then toss it

Have had one or two brews that smelled funky but turned out great at the end

 

[Grott]

I think we mentioned before about pulling the fermenter tap apart and cleaning/sanitizing plus the fermenter thread.

manticle is correct and the pH reading is the important factor not cloudiness. The reading should be 1 to 3 (inclusive) when testing. (I use litmus paper strips which I get from ebay, $1 for a book of 80, free postage! but you can get from swimming pool gear suppliers like Clarksons).

You state the brew was put down last night, give it a chance and as there are some bubbles I'd say its on its way. From memory the Coopers Amber Ale is slow to get going and is not over active.

I would persist at this stage as the smells may be to do with the style of the brew.

 

[trustyrusty]

I will let it go for a few days, but not seem active at the moment, no hopeful.... noticed my spoon has small pits in the back...but goes in with boiling water so I cant see an issue - but will has something else now.. Could be the tap....I will check it. cheers

 

[manticle]

Get a new spoon.

 

[dannymars]

I keep starsan for months, I've usually got a whole keg of it sitting around. Always check pH before using (as grott mentioned a pH of 1-3 is acceptable). If tends to keep for longer if you filter your water.

 

[stm]

So what product actually is it? (You said "starsan like".)

 

[user 31093]

They say with starsan that its good to use unless its cloudy, I reuse mine until it goes cloudy, I find if its in a sealed container (or a 4L keg in my case) it seems to stay clear, I left some in a 5L jug that was open to the air and it went cloudy fairly quickly.

Describe the smell, that might help with suggestions.

Mine's cloudy the instant I mix it.

Like a frog in a sock.

 

[tugger]

So what product actually is it? (You said "starsan like".)

Possibly the keg king equivalent.

 

[trustyrusty]

Yes Keg King I think, cannot remember where I got, anyway been good for about 35 brews, no issues ...something is wrong.. my guess is the tap maybe not clean...?

It is a MJ stainless - not sure how the tap comes apart, will have to try when empty.

cheers

 

[tugger]

You unscrew the top from the bottom and it all comes apart. Best to run a brush through the hole also.

 

[kaiserben]

Yes Keg King I think, cannot remember where I got, anyway been good for about 35 brews, no issues ...something is wrong.. my guess is the tap maybe not clean...?

It is a MJ stainless - not sure how the tap comes apart, will have to try when empty.

cheers

I reckon you've found your problem.

EDIT: Having seen the advice from the post above this one, do not run a brush through anything that is plastic.

 

[manticle]

We're talking stainless KB

 

[Coalminer]

I find 1L Starsan in a spray bottle enough for a keg/bottling session
I mix fresh and discard at end of the job
Cost less than 10c/Lire to make

 

[bradsbrew]

Taps are plastic though.

 

[kaiserben]

We're talking stainless KB

The Mangrove Jack's SS fermenter has a plastic tap. (well it's black plastic outer, a stainless nut, a silicon o-ring, plastic bits that push in/out to control the flow)

 

[manticle]

Fair enough.
Seems odd but fair enough.

 

[Leyther]

Thanks for the advice on the 'cloudy', I read that on some blog somewhere but I've invested in a pack of 80 litmus papers today, $1.50 off ebay

 

[trustyrusty]

Interestingly it is bubbling away today, and the wort does not taste bad... I would assume it would be bubbling if it was off? I am sure it would be a bit vinegary today?
And I had a taste of a commercial beer, last night think it was the Asashi Megaui or soemthing and the smell was similar to what I am getting but was not as bad - maybe just what it is supposed to be like? Not pleasant though - sort of like the horse blanket smell but a little different, fermenting apples - I dont know really hard to describe.

 

[manticle]

Acetaldehyde can taste like granny smiths and is a natural part of fermentation.
Usually reabsorbed by yeast in healthy fermentation.

There are also various esters that may have apple or pear like flavours. Ethyl hexoanate for example can taste like red apple. I get a bit of it early on with a scottish ale yeast and a belgian yeast. Tends to dissipate with conditioning.

 

[trustyrusty]

Thanks - This is the Coopers Premium yeast, from Amber Ale kit (I think this is supposed to be a better yeast than other cans)....so it maybe a little different?

 

[manticle]

All yeasts are different from each other

 

[Bones99]

TrustyRusty,

Give it time mate, time helps a LOT.
Too early to say whether it will be good or not and once fermenting the smell and flavour changes all the time.

I don't bother trying to save money on cleaning products - good cleaning practices outweigh bad brewing processes in my experience.
I use Sodium Perc for cleaning everything especially soaking plastic fermenters and anything else plastic and sanitise with the KK Acid Cleaner (Starsan copy) and that's it.

Throw the spoon if in doubt as in the long run, they are a disposable item and don't cost that much to replace (less than a couple of bad batches of beer anyway) but if you haven't pulled your tap apart (and I think you said you'd done about 40 brews) I think you may have found your problem (if there is one). I pull every component to pieces after every brew/ferment and clean, clean, clean.

Good luck mate.
Bones

P.S. Coopers Amber Kit does take a little while to get going from past experience / memory

 

[trustyrusty]

Yes I think the tap was the issue - The tap is quite hard to clean - Mangrove Jacks tap is fitted unless I take off.. but even though hard to see inside.I took some ear buds and scraped the inside and there were bits of old yeast - urghhh totally forgot about this because other taps you can take off and are white plastic so you can see, about 20 brews. I wonder if I can swap out the tap - I don't want to have to wrench off a tap every time.. Any ideas how to clean the tap inside without damage - I don't want to use wire brush or it will make marks that will catch stuff. I took a kitchen cloth and made a strip that I ran through a few times but not sure if you get all the bits as you cannot see. I have filled up with hot water and cleaner to soak.

Thanks