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Brulosophy - Lager Method

Discussion in 'General Brewing Techniques' started by krz, 6/6/18.

 

  1. krz

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    Posted 6/6/18
    Hi,

    I'm brewing my 1st lager using a variation of a method I found on Brulosophy.
    Here is the method

    His theory is great, just wondering what all you lot think?
     
  2. MHB

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    Posted 6/6/18
    Gee aren't we lucky, we have Brulosophy to save us from all that rubbish put out by at least 3 major brewing universities in Germany! But what would they know.

    I actually spent the time to read this offering and by the time I got to the pictures at the bottom I think I understand why they aren't really "Bright" (that's a technical term).
    Mark
     
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  3. Brewno Marz

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    Posted 6/6/18
    Give it a go! I have been fermenting my colder ferment beers at around 13deg C and they are all fully fermented within 10 to 12 days using 34/70 or M84. Cold crash, gelatin and drinking on day 15 after a quickish carb at 200kPa for 48hrs. No complex temperature steps needed & no diacetyl. The local brewery (XXXX Milton) does it in 9 days, but they pressure ferment & filter! The only right way is what works for you.
     
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  4. brewgasm

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    Posted 7/6/18
    I stumbled on that post a week or two ago. I have on Done 1 lager in 50 odd brews the second is a bock that I have in the fermentor at the moment and I am keen to do it properly :)
     
  5. hoppy2B

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    Posted 7/6/18
    Put a tablespoon of gypsum in your water, that will give you a crisp clear lager. :p

    I used 2 tablespoons on a double batch of ale fermented with 1469, and it is the crispest clearest beer I have ever made by a long, long way. I recently cultured the yeast from an 18 month old bottle and it kicked off in under 3 days. Freaking amazing. I suspect the sulphur is good for yeast health.

    You probably don't need to use a whole tablespoon. 1 tablespoon is the amount that is needed for Burtonising water.

    Don't worry about what MHB says, he is always poo pooing things he hasn't tried.
     
  6. Uyllii

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    Posted 7/6/18
    Shouldn't that be dependent on the water profile and the style?
    I brew a lot of Czech premium lager and a tablespoon of anything added to the water would throw the beer totally out of wack.
     
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  7. philrob

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    Posted 7/6/18
    I've known MHB for the better part of a decade, and what he doesn't know about brewing isn't worth knowing.
    Ignore him at your peril, if you are happy to brew sub-standard beer.
    On the other hand, if you wish to improve your brewing techniques and the quality of your beers, take note of what he suggests.
     
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  8. Jack of all biers

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    Posted 7/6/18
    It might work for you, but your 'advice' is vague and poor. And to be honest looks like you just posted a random comment in a thread to try and needle @MHB, as it is totally unrelated to the topic or what is normal water profiles for most lagers (exception below).

    So there is ~4gm CaSO4 per level US teaspoon*. In Aus we use the Imperial teaspoon and tablespoon measurements.
    There are 3 Imperial teaspoons per 1 Imperial tablespoon**
    There are 1.2 Imperial teaspoons per 1 US teaspoon**

    So your tablespoon full of gypsum = 4 x 1.2 x 3 = 14.4gm of CaSO4. That means for your double batch you added 28.8gm of CaSO4 (assuming each was level). What was your double batch volume and initial Ca and SO4 levels? Cause that is a fair wack of CaSO4. According to Brewersfriends calculations even if you use RO water at 0ppm of either, that amount raises 70L of water to 96ppm Ca and 230ppm SO4. Definitely Burtonising your water, but what that has to do with the OP or any other comment in this Lager thread is beyond me. Or are you just trying to provoke MHB?

    The generalised comment re 1 tablespoon or 14.4gm in a lager is poor as it gives the same levels of 96ppm Ca & 230ppm SO4 (assuming it is single batch water volume of 35L, but lets face it many brewers would use less than that for a 23L brew). Even half that is way too much for most lagers and that assumes the brewer has access to RO water and then wants 0ppm chloride to balance out the SO4. All SO4 in any lager would be unbalanced and likely make it taste shit. Qualifying your statement with "you probably don't need a whole one" is vague.

    There are a couple of lagers that use higher mineral water, Dortmund water being something that might fit what you suggest, but again who asked about making water to suit a Dortmunder and again the advice would be incomplete as there would need to be some Calcium Chloride (CaCl2), Sodium Bicarbonate (NaHCO3) and Magnesium Sulphate (Epsom salts MgSO4) added at varying amounts. And even then that would be assuming the brewer has RO water, which most don't.

    * How to brew teaspoon CaSO4 link
    ** Teaspoon & tablespoon conversions

    EDIT - Oh yeah and a little bit of education for you @hoppy2B utilization of sulphur from sulphate by brewers yeast has been known about for a long time. But it can easily use sulphur from other sources and does. You no longer need to suspect, now you know.
     
    Last edited: 7/6/18
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  9. MHB

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    Posted 7/6/18
    Almost right, adding a heaped tablespoon in 23L would put you pretty close to the Sulphate content of "traditional" Burton Water (not really a noted Lager/Pilsner producing region), It wouldn't go anywhere near the rest of the mineral makeup.
    When you think Urquell, Its about 30 times more than recommended, more than 10 times Munich water content.
    Again we are talking about Sulphate not Sulphur, same difference as a pinch of salt in you uncle tobies V gassing it with Chlorine.
    Sorry you get so upset when people point out that you largely post twaddle, but that doesn't mean you know what I have tried over the last couple of decades AG brewing. Go have another whinge to Admin.
    Mark
     
  10. Rocker1986

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    Posted 7/6/18
    I've used this method although somewhat adjusted for three years and been producing lovely lagers. I don't do it quite as quickly as he does because I'd rather be a bit more patient and get a great beer over a good one, but they're usually about 4 weeks between pitching yeast and kegging with a two week cold crash, and when I can (i.e. have room in the keg fridge) they get further cold storage in the keg before I finally tap them. I'm kegging one on Tuesday which will be just shy of two weeks cold conditioning in the FV, and that keg will sit in the kegerator untapped for another 3 weeks before I try one, and probably another 3 or 4 weeks after that before I finally start drinking it properly. Should be bloody nice by then!

    I have tried them straight after kegging when I've been really low on stocks, and have noted that they have improved noticeably over the weeks they were on tap. I'd rather have them great from first glass to last though.

    And yeah, a tablespoon of gypsum in a Czech lager is fucking nonsense. Mine are lucky if they get half a gram in 33 litres of strike water. Soft water is key to that style I think.

    Cheers

    Kelsey
     
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  11. Jack of all biers

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    Posted 7/6/18
    Getting back on topic. I think the method is okay, as pointed out by Rocker. You just want to know what you are doing, as if you do it all too quick you may be disappointed with the result.

    Lagering doesn't rely on fermentation temp, per se, but the German word Lager means to store (originally in caves with or without ice in them to escape the disastrous effects summer heat could have on beer). It's the gradual cooling of the beer once fermentation (and any VDK [diacetyl] reduction temp step) is complete that assists the lager yeast (Saccharomyces pastorianus) to clean up any remaining byproducts and smooth out the beer. The gradual cooling also assists the yeast store reserves (which is important if you want to reuse the yeast). Even at 4C lager yeast can be slightly active, so storing/conditioning at or above that temp can result in further clean up. So gradual temp decreasing helps kick the yeast into clean up mode as it were. Once under 4C, they are well and truly in hibernation. The length of the cold condition is important too, as during that time other components in the beer will settle out. Things like cold break and some polyphenols take time to settle out. The length of time can be supplemented with the right methods and or flocculants, but I tend to agree with MHB's sentiment that they can't really give the same result. Like all things in brewing, balance and compromise is the key, but knowing the affects/effects are important to knowing what one is compromising on (methods used to get there are no different). That leads one to knowing when and how one can take short cuts and what effects they will have.

    My suggestion is give a circa 1.048 OG recipe a go using the above method and another using the lower brew temps, gradual temp reduction and traditional lager method for say 6-8 weeks and compare them next to each other (yes I know the quicker one will also lager for the same period, so do the longer method one first and time the other one to coincide with the traditional one being complete). You will then know yourself, whether you want to take the time or not. I think John Palmer says it well in his experiment chapter and will let you peruse.
     
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  12. Rocker1986

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    Posted 7/6/18
    I might actually try the more gradual cooling on my next one. So far I've just been dropping the controller to zero and leaving the beer at that temperature for two weeks until it's kegged. There's nothing wrong with the beers but if they can be improved by doing that then it's worth it to me.

    Sent from my Agora 4G+ using Aussie Home Brewer mobile app
     
  13. krz

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    Posted 7/6/18
    When I said, I used Brusophly as a basis, I actually did the following:-
    1. With a yeast starter (Oktoberfest), pitched at 21C and over 2 days dropped to 14, then 12 where it sat for 12 days.
    2. I started the temp ramp up gradually to 18C for 6 days
    3. Ramp down, gradually reduced, its at 2C now for 4 days.
    4. Today I dumped the yeast, will let it sit another 3 days at 2C <------ where I am now
    5. Carbonate (if needed) for say 2 days - its actually been closed fermented already for 20 days, it holds 8psi at 2C
    6. Keg and lager
     
  14. Jack of all biers

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    Posted 7/6/18
    1. Was your starter pitched active (high krausen)? If so, and if you used a calculator to come close to 1 Mill cells/ml/Plato (1.5 mill is better, but 1 mill will do it, especially with a warmer start), then there is no need to start at 21C pitch temp. You could pitch at say 18C and lower the temp over 24-36hr to 12C. The reason I say this is if you have active yeast pitched, it tends to get moving past the lag phase pretty quick and then most flavour compounds are made in the first 72hrs. If you have Lager yeast at 21C for 48 of those 72hrs then you will have more esters etc produced. Nature of the beast.
    2. no need to hold it at 18C for 6 days. 3 days is adequate. If your 6 days include ramp up time then no need to take so long from 12C to 18C. Within 24hrs would be slow enough that the yeast wouldn't start throwing temp shock proteins. A nice gentle heat with a fan in the fridge/whatever will do it. Maybe ramp to 15C then in 12hrs return and reset it to 18C. Come back 2-3 days later and start the ramp back down. (there is a very competent lager brewer @labels that crashes from D-rest temps to fermentation temps all at once and then slowly lowers to lager temps from there and swears by it).
     
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  15. Rocker1986

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    Posted 7/6/18
    I would have thought if you are going to the trouble of making a yeast starter, you can pitch it at ferment temp or even a bit lower than that and let it come up, rather than pitching warm and having to chill it down.

    When I raise the temp from 10C to 18C, I just set the controller to 18C and leave it. No artificial heat is used; I rely on the heat generated by the fermentation itself since this rise is employed before the fermentation finishes, as well as the ambient outside the fridge to a small degree. The latter doesn't do much at this time of year though. In any case, the beer usually rises to 18 in a little over 24 hours without me doing anything other than changing the temp on the controller. No flavor problems. I do normally hold it up there for a week, I guess I figure it takes another couple of days to reach FG and then I give it another few days post reaching FG. I take FG samples after 10 and 12 days, maybe in future if the 12 day sample tastes and smells good enough then the ramp down to lagering temps can begin then instead of waiting another two days.

    With the slower ramp down I was thinking of trying the method described there that labels uses as well, dropping to 10 or 11C then a couple of degrees per day down to 4C, leave there for a week and a half or whatever, add isinglass and Polyclar as normal then keg it and stick it in the keg fridge for another few weeks. The keg fridge is set colder at around -1, although I'm not sure it actually gets that cold in there. I had a thermometer in there recently and it seemed to stop dropping around 2-3 degrees.

    Cheers

    Kelsey
     
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  16. MHB

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    Posted 7/6/18
    Inclined to agree, in lager making yeast management is king. Getting the start cold and keeping it there for say the first 1/3 -1/2 (of gravity) of the ferment is pretty important.
    Most German brewers appear to be pitching (a lot of yeast) at 8oC, from there some let it rise to 10oC or even 12oC for what is called "Warm Fermentation"
    Posted this plenty of times in the past, from Kunze and probably represents what a home brewer can reasonably manage in a CCV - lets leave pressure fermentation out of the discussion for now.
    Mark Lager.jpg
    Solid line - Temperature
    Solid 1/2 Tone - VDK (Diacetyl)
    Dashed --- Gravity in oP (X4 to get points i.e. 10oP = 40 points or 1.040 (roughly))
    ^ arrows - where yeast is cropped
     
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