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Brewmate Ibu Calculations

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Truman42

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Has anyone else noticed the IBU calculations in brewmate always seem less than what the final product seems to be?

I did an Epic Pale Ale clone and cant remember the IBU calculation off hand for it but this beer was very very bitter.

I always use a hop sock, I always use a chiller and have no chill unticked of course. This recipe required flame out additions and whirlpool additions. I added the hops at flame out into the hop sock, waited 15 mins then whirlpooled while adding the last additon direct into the wort (Removed the hop spider so I could whirlpool properly.) Then 15 mins later ran through the chiller into the fermenter. Although I would assume none of these late additions would effect bitterness anyway.

For my next brew I will drop the IBU in the recipe by 10 and see how the final product compares. Anyone else notice this with brewmate or maybe its just my process?
 

Yob

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Its been my experience that these numbers are really only a guide, the more I brew the less import I put on computerized figures.. they are hany but as a rough guide only,

Let your taste have the final say.

:icon_cheers:
 

Rowy

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I actually seem to think they are a little low. As a result I go a bit higher. It maybe that my taste buds have been destroyed by my ever increasing desire for hoppier beers though. I reckon what yob says is right, use it as a guide and go with what ever floats your boat :icon_cheers:
 

mxd

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it appears your not chilling for 30 minutes on some and 15 minutes on others, so you'll get some bitterness there. The bitterness could also be a recipe issue, not enough malt.
 

chunckious

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If the Epic recipe has a stated IBU that your matching then no idea. But if it doesn't and your only matching hop amounts based on batch size then AA% of different crops could come into play.
 

Truman42

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it appears your not chilling for 30 minutes on some and 15 minutes on others, so you'll get some bitterness there. The bitterness could also be a recipe issue, not enough malt.
So maybe I should wait longer from flame out until I add my hops, say 10 mins to let the wort cool a bit. Then add my whirlpool hops sooner and whirlpool for ony 10 mins before chilling.
@ Chunkious....Im matching the IBUs based on the recipe not based on hop amounts. So Im changing the AA% based on what I have and adjusting the hops based on the IBU's of the recipe.

I agree with Yob about basing it on taste. Problem is Ive never done a repeat recipe as yet. I might just start educing IBUs by 10 based on the ecipe and see how it goes. I was just curious to see if this was a common issue for other brewmate users.
 

QldKev

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There 4 compounds that make a total bitterness, I think most software just uses the old hops AA% x Time to calc IBU.

but forget software for a sec...

Did you make the Epic as per the recipe in the thread? I followed with a couple of minor substitutions to the grain, basically to what I had on-hand, also I no-chilled. I didn't find it that bitter.
I did start with rain water and built up my own water. I wonder if the water your are using is very high in Chloride?

QldKev
 

bignath

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The bitterness could also be a recipe issue, not enough malt.
Truman, i'm wondering if mxd is on the money here.

The more i brew i'm finding myself paying more attention to the BU:GU or balance figures than the actual IBU calculation.

I'm getting closer to the beer flavour profile that i want by doing this.


eg: a beer with a OG of 1.060 and IBU of 30 will IMO have a much less noticeable hop presence than 1.040 and 30.

For my hoppy ales (is there any other type ;) ) i tend to match my OG to my IBU's. This works well for me.

Particularly as at the moment i'm experimenting with brewing only cube hopped beers (no kettle additions). There are some technical, theoretical problems with this method, but so far i'm impressed with the quality of my beers. It also means that if you miss your targets by extracting more or less sugars, you can recalculate your single addition to the cube to balance it out every time.

What OG is the beer(s) in question mate?
 

bum

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It also means that if you miss your targets by extracting more or less sugars, you can recalculate your single addition to the cube to balance it out every time.
:huh:

You can't do this with any other method?
 

Salt

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You will be getting some extra bitterness from the flame out and whirlpool additions.

My understanding (having not brewed it yet), is that the recipe IBUs will be lower than the actual IBUs due to the fact that you will gain some extra IBUs from the flame out additions. Say the recipe in Brewmate gives 30IBUs, depending on how much you add after flame out and for how long they remain in and and what temps, you could gain IBUs.

I always bump my IBUs up in brewmate, whether the program is inaccurate or if my efficiency and extraction is lower.

Cheers
 

bignath

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:huh:

You can't do this with any other method?
Have you got a crystal ball bum?

What happens if you get a different OG at the end of the boil, but you've already added your hops during the boil?
Maybe your boil off is different for one particular batch? Maybe the ambient temp helped your boil stronger, or weaker. Or maybe you had to leave the boil for a bit to look after a kid who's run face first into a wall and required your attention where you couldn't keep an eye on boil off?

You could extract more sugars by doing a really great sparge. You could extract less sugars if you couldn't be fucked sparging. You could extract more sugars by crushing finer, or less sugars by crushing more coarse.
You could have different rigs like me (and a lot of other brewers) where your efficiency may be different for the same recipe by using a different rig.
What if you want to do a previously known recipe but want to change the grain bill quantity or batch size, or stronger beer and your efficiency changes by doing so?

Im not saying my beers weren't good by doing a more traditional hopping schedule, it's just something i'm experimenting with at the moment in the journey of learning about beer flavours, ingredients and process.

More than one way to skin a cat, and i'm just seeing if this way works. So far, it's been great.
 

Truman42

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Truman, i'm wondering if mxd is on the money here.

The more i brew i'm finding myself paying more attention to the BU:GU or balance figures than the actual IBU calculation.

I'm getting closer to the beer flavour profile that i want by doing this.


eg: a beer with a OG of 1.060 and IBU of 30 will IMO have a much less noticeable hop presence than 1.040 and 30.

For my hoppy ales (is there any other type ;) ) i tend to match my OG to my IBU's. This works well for me.

Particularly as at the moment i'm experimenting with brewing only cube hopped beers (no kettle additions). There are some technical, theoretical problems with this method, but so far i'm impressed with the quality of my beers. It also means that if you miss your targets by extracting more or less sugars, you can recalculate your single addition to the cube to balance it out every time.

What OG is the beer(s) in question mate?
Inetresting you say this Big Nath. When I did BIAB and a double sparge I ALWAYS ended up with an SG much higher than the recipe and never had any problems with my beers being too bitter. (Although I was probably extracting tannins and other crap by sparging and squezing the crap out of the bag.) In fact quite often they werent as bitter as they should have been for the style.

But since going to herms Ive noticed my SG is usually spot on to what my recipe says. I cant remember the OG for this as Im at work and the recipes at home. Its not just this brew though its happened to a few of my brews since going to herms and maybe thats why. I will work with the BU:GU balance in brewmate using the style nazi and see if that makes a difference.

Apologies gents but I just realised I had actually already questioned the bitterness of this brew on the Epic Pale Ale clone thread. (Ive been off this site for 3 months so had forgotten about that post so apologies to anyone who might be upset that I asked again)
But its a common theme with a few of my brews lately so thanks for the advice on what to keep an eye on.
 

QldKev

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Inetresting you say this Big Nath. When I did BIAB and a double sparge I ALWAYS ended up with an SG much higher than the recipe and never had any problems with my beers being too bitter. (Although I was probably extracting tannins and other crap by sparging and squezing the crap out of the bag.) In fact quite often they werent as bitter as they should have been for the style.

But since going to herms Ive noticed my SG is usually spot on to what my recipe says. I cant remember the OG for this as Im at work and the recipes at home. Its not just this brew though its happened to a few of my brews since going to herms and maybe thats why. I will work with the BU:GU balance in brewmate using the style nazi and see if that makes a difference.

Apologies gents but I just realised I had actually already questioned the bitterness of this brew on the Epic Pale Ale clone thread. (Ive been off this site for 3 months so had forgotten about that post so apologies to anyone who might be upset that I asked again)
But its a common theme with a few of my brews lately so thanks for the advice on what to keep an eye on.
I read it as Big Nath is agreeing with you. If you hit a higher SG than planned without changing the hops you will result in a less bitter beer. But as in Big Naths example if you planned 1.060 and hit 1.040 you will end up way too bitter on the balance.
 

Truman42

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I read it as Big Nath is agreeing with you. If you hit a higher SG than planned without changing the hops you will result in a less bitter beer. But as in Big Naths example if you planned 1.060 and hit 1.040 you will end up way too bitter on the balance.

Oh okay I misunderstood. No my Sg was spot on as per recipe.
 

felten

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Does the program use Rager or Tinseth?


There can be a large difference between the 2. Looking at an IPA recipe here with a lot of late hops, Tinseth gives 61.5 IBU whereas Rager gives 49.5.
 

Nick JD

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Not trying to be a smart ass, just adding to this for clarity...

Brewmate has 3 settings: Rager, Tinseth, and Average.
I have it on average - I find this suits my beers best.

[waits for obvious reply...] :D
 

GuyQLD

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Now if only some one could explain to me why the boil and aroma drop down settings seem to give completely different results then I'll be happy.
 

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